FreeOrion

Forums for the FreeOrion project
It is currently Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:39 pm

All times are UTC




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 50 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:17 am 
Offline
Design & Graphics Lead Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:09 pm
Posts: 3858
Location: USA — midwest
Purple Guys:
Please realize that a two sentence reference to a game some of us have never played does not convey much info.


Moriarty:
having slots does not necessitate that the game unnecessarily restrict what can go in them. Since we don't have hulls specialized for a specific role (mine-layer, carrier, ect.) It's rather unlikely that slots (if chosen) would be restricted, except in general categories: External, Internal, & Engine, for instance.

_________________
—• Read this First before posting Game Design Ideas!
—• Design Philosophy

—•— My Ideas, Organized —•— Get an Avatar —•— Acronyms —•—


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:58 am 
Offline
Cosmic Dragon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 12:37 am
Posts: 2175
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
eleazar wrote:
I'm rather dubious about having a damage model where individual components take damage. With only a few seconds per turn, i imagine it would be quite hard for the player to quickly evaluate the health of multiple ships.

It can be done if each component has 'health' within a group. Eg 'Weapon' Components make up the weapon health meter. 'Defensive' Components make up the 'Defense' Meter. So you could have X Meters per ship shown as a health bar. And then have group wide health bars (the total).

eleazar wrote:
Can someone provide an example of a non turn-based game fleet game that successfully implements such a system?

No. And why a real time system? Combat is going to be like KOTOR, part real time part turn based, aka phased time, aka simultanious turn based.

Moriarty wrote:
So at the risk of re-entering the Role discussion (that I didn't read), I'll just say that Stars/Slots are very role oriented. You can only do what the game designers want/forsaw. And do you really want to trust the FO designers? ;) heh

Sigh @ being forbidden to talk about role stuff :cry:

This is true that slots is role orientated. You can avoid it though if you allow multiple components per slot and multiple component types in slot and then have X slots of X size each. Or just have one slot of total size. Of course at this point you might as well have a list system.

Moriarty wrote:
Lists let you design any type of ship from a simple base-hull. But they require more effort on the part of the player.

Yes, they are awesome.

Moriarty wrote:
With any system, I think a way to auto-equip basic stuff (shields, armour, engines) to the best tech level available would make sense. It'd be even more helpful with a slots system.

I agree. Why should we drag each chunk of armour into the right slot, when we can just choose from a drop box, Adamantium Armour and then maybe click check boxes to say front, rear, back, etc. The option for no armour or older tech armour should be available.

I could see how it might be important to put some components in twice, eg weapons, and shields if they increased strength with the more you have. Otherwise, just the simplest system should be used.



Overall I can think of the following questions that need to be answered in order to choose slots/list/grid:

*Multiple Ship Sections?
eg External / Internal / Deck 1, 2, etc.

*Component Space Usage Range?
eg 4 space (lasers) to 150 space (reinforced armour), or 1 space for all components or 1-4 space, etc.

*Component Restrictions for Space Sections?
eg Generic Slot allows any component. Weapons Slot only allows weapons. Internal Space Section only allows systems. External Space Section only allows weapons. Only one Component Type per slot.

*Tracking of Component Health?
eg Health bar to determine damage to engines, weapons, etc.

*Component Facings?
eg Restriction on Component Facings (Slots) or The ability to choose component facings, for weapons, shields, armour, etc.

*Quick Selection Systems?
eg Latest Armour automatically chosen (like Moo2) and changeable by player or player selects or drags in every single component and part.

*Method of choosing Components?
eg Drag & Drop (Slots/Grid), Drop Box (List/Slots), Pop Up Window (List/Slots), etc

*Hard Points?
eg Hard Points such as a Slot represent matching coordinates on the ships 3d model for display of components or creation of 'bullets'. Ability of the player to position these hard points, otherwise deal with where they already are.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:14 am 
Offline
Small Juggernaut
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 11:07 am
Posts: 724
Location: Hastings, UK
Moriarty wrote:
So at the risk of re-entering the Role discussion (that I didn't read), I'll just say that Stars/Slots are very role oriented. You can only do what the game designers want/forsaw.

I agree - I dont see much benefit in not having stongly defined ship roles, but then implementing a slot based system. The main use for a slot based system is that it allows you to constrain what the player can fit to a ship - i.e. to define roles.

Putting 'n' weapon slots on a hull size constrains it's possible uses just as much as having a bonus system, or some other method of defining ship roles. How can you having 'x' weapon slots allow you to design a battleship and carrier without strongly biassing towards one or the other?

My opinion : Just have a list based system. The hull has a certain amount of space available and you fill it up with whatever you want.

_________________
The COW Project : You have a spy in your midst.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:23 pm 
Offline
Dyson Forest

Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:50 pm
Posts: 205
Location: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Well, seeing as it's not 3am now I can think with a clearer head. ;)
Much as I do like the slots, they do strike me as being too restricted overall. Lists are much more flexible so I'll put my vote in that direction.
Though I don't have much of an idea about the over-all game (due to long periods away and a current unwillingness to install .Net), so my view doesn't take everything into account.

utilae wrote:
I agree. Why should we drag each chunk of armour into the right slot, when we can just choose from a drop box, Adamantium Armour and then maybe click check boxes to say front, rear, back, etc.

Well, in Stars case, most hulls only had one "slot" of armour, and thus one drag. Your example is 1 click, then a scroll, then another click, then up to 4 more scrolls. In this respect the slots are much simpler, as they can represent all facings with just one slot (which is what I assumed was represented in Stars.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:35 pm 
Offline
Programming, Design, Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:33 am
Posts: 12045
Location: Munich
Moriarty wrote:
Much as I do like the slots, they do strike me as being too restricted overall. Lists are much more flexible...

Could you elaborate on this view? What is so restrictive about slots? What are you assuming about how slots will be set up?

Also, more "flexibility" is not always a good thing. If we have too few restrictions on how ship designs work, then it will be more difficult to balance ships, and there will be fewer ways to differentiate parts or variations in hulls. Taking "flexibility" to the extreme, there would be no restrictions at all on what or how much could be put into a ship... Is that what you'd prefer?

Daveybaby wrote:
The main use for a slot based system is that it allows you to constrain what the player can fit to a ship - i.e. to define roles.

There are other reasons to constrain what can be put in a ship other than just defining ship roles. At the simplest, different hulls could have different available types (restrictions) and numbers of slots, in a way that's not tied directly to any particular ship role.

Moriarty wrote:
...so I'll put my vote in that direction.

It's better to think of this sort of thread as a discussion than a vote. Simply stating a preference without a (detailed) reason isn't worth much, and probably won't significantly influence the results. (Though a reason could be agreement with someone else's reason...)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:24 pm 
Offline
Cosmic Dragon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 12:37 am
Posts: 2175
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Geoff the Medio wrote:
Moriarty wrote:
Much as I do like the slots, they do strike me as being too restricted overall. Lists are much more flexible...

Could you elaborate on this view? What is so restrictive about slots? What are you assuming about how slots will be set up?

The problem with slots is that you need some precreated hulls that have slots in certain positions, eg 2 slots on the front for weapons, one on the back for weapons, one general slot in the middle.

The problem is what is the reasoning in positioning the slots on the ship. If the slots position had some importance, eg on the rear allowing only rear weapons fire, then who decides where these slots go and what restrictions they have.

If the designer decides, through some kind of precreated hull, themed to a role, then that is ok if we are going with role specific hulls. If the player decides, by being able to position slots themselves, then that allows the player the flexibility of the list system.

In the end, if the position of the slots was not important, then they might as well be grouped together in a grid.

Further more, if multiple components are allowed in each slot, even of multiple component types, then how do we display that information, with a popup/side window?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:00 pm 
Offline
Programming, Design, Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:33 am
Posts: 12045
Location: Munich
utilae wrote:
...through some kind of precreated hull, themed to a role, then that is ok...

As said in several posts above, having precreated hulls (for various sizes, perhaps shapes) does not mean hulls have to be role-specific.

Quote:
...if we are going with role specific hulls.

We are using the system described in the wiki. There is no role-specific "if" about it, so please stop writing as though there was. If you don't undestand the chosen system, then ask, preferably by pm or in another thread, and I can clarify / update the wiki.

Quote:
In the end, if the position of the slots was not important, then they might as well be grouped together in a grid.

If we grouped slots into a grid, we'd probably do so in order to make their position more important, not less. Grids have a strictly defined spatial relationship between slots, with obvious internal / external, forward / aft, and side slots.

Quote:
Further more, if multiple components are allowed in each slot, even of multiple component types, then how do we display that information, with a popup/side window?

Display where: during battles or on the design screen? Either way, an apporpriate graphic and/or a something like "x 3" (to indicate 3 of something in a slot) could work.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:40 pm 
Offline
Large Juggernaut
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:34 pm
Posts: 938
Location: GA
utilae wrote:
eleazar wrote:
I'm rather dubious about having a damage model where individual components take damage. With only a few seconds per turn, i imagine it would be quite hard for the player to quickly evaluate the health of multiple ships.

It can be done if each component has 'health' within a group. Eg 'Weapon' Components make up the weapon health meter. 'Defensive' Components make up the 'Defense' Meter. So you could have X Meters per ship shown as a health bar. And then have group wide health bars (the total).
SE5 did this. Each component has a durability and destroying it causes it to no longer function. A hull is considered destroyed when you reduce the durability of all components to 0. There are seperate meters for armor component and others.

_________________
Computer programming is fun.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:07 am 
Offline
Cosmic Dragon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 12:37 am
Posts: 2175
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Geoff the Medio wrote:
We are using the system described in the wiki. There is no role-specific "if" about it, so please stop writing as though there was. If you don't undestand the chosen system, then ask, preferably by pm or in another thread, and I can clarify / update the wiki.

I know what the chosen system is. I know you don't like role specific discussion, but I am keeping it to a minimum, and it is relevant to the design system imo. I was pointing out how the slots system lends itself to some kind of precreated hull design system easily (roles usually being the theme for the hull).

In the end, I am trying to determine in a slots system, what importance the position of slots would have, eg if we will have no precreated hulls, would the slots system be useless to us.

Geoff the Medio wrote:
If we grouped slots into a grid, we'd probably do so in order to make their position more important, not less. Grids have a strictly defined spatial relationship between slots, with obvious internal / external, forward / aft, and side slots.

While this is true, I find it difficult to think of a reason each slot would be where it is (eg seperate like in Stars!) if the reason is not because a hull is being used, whether role specific or not.

Geoff the Medio wrote:
Display where: during battles or on the design screen? Either way, an apporpriate graphic and/or a something like "x 3" (to indicate 3 of something in a slot) could work.

In the design screen.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:10 am 
Offline
Design & Graphics Lead Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:09 pm
Posts: 3858
Location: USA — midwest
Daveybaby wrote:
Moriarty wrote:
So at the risk of re-entering the Role discussion (that I didn't read), I'll just say that Stars/Slots are very role oriented. You can only do what the game designers want/forsaw.

I agree - I dont see much benefit in not having stongly defined ship roles, but then implementing a slot based system. The main use for a slot based system is that it allows you to constrain what the player can fit to a ship - i.e. to define roles.

Slots may have that purpose in other games, but they can serve other purposes in FO.
1) Streamlining construction.
2) Simplifying construction.
3) Controlling the facing of weapons

Daveybaby wrote:
Putting 'n' weapon slots on a hull size constrains it's possible uses just as much as having a bonus system, or some other method of defining ship roles. How can you having 'x' weapon slots allow you to design a battleship and carrier without strongly biassing towards one or the other?

You unnecessarily assume that weapons and fighter bays aren't possible choices for the same slot. Since our hulls aren't role specific, it's almost certain that the player will have more freedom to choose what will go in a particular slot than in games with role-specific hulls.

_________________
—• Read this First before posting Game Design Ideas!
—• Design Philosophy

—•— My Ideas, Organized —•— Get an Avatar —•— Acronyms —•—


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:34 am 
Offline
Programming, Design, Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:33 am
Posts: 12045
Location: Munich
utilae wrote:
...the slots system lends itself to some kind of precreated hull design system easily (roles usually being the theme for the hull).

If we have "precreated hulls" of some sort, they will not be restricted to or tailored for a particular "role". Rather, such precreated hulls may be separated by size or shape, as described in the design document, or something similar.

Regardless, we will likely have a at least a few "precreated hulls" no matter what system we use. If using lists with a single "mass" or "volume" limit, we'd have different hulls with different limits for different sizes. If using a grid, we'd have different numbers of slots in the grid. If using slots, we'd have different numbers of slots for different hull, all of which would need to be defined by designers beforehand.

Quote:
While this is true, I find it difficult to think of a reason each slot would be where it is [...] if the reason is not because a hull is being used...

I don't know what that was supposed to mean...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:52 am 
Offline
Cosmic Dragon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 12:37 am
Posts: 2175
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Geoff the Medio wrote:
If we have "precreated hulls" of some sort, they will not be restricted to or tailored for a particular "role". Rather, such precreated hulls may be separated by size or shape, as described in the design document, or something similar.

Regardless, we will likely have a at least a few "precreated hulls" no matter what system we use. If using lists with a single "mass" or "volume" limit, we'd have different hulls with different limits for different sizes. If using a grid, we'd have different numbers of slots in the grid. If using slots, we'd have different numbers of slots for different hull, all of which would need to be defined by designers beforehand.

You know how Stars! is. One hull might have three slots in the front and two in the back. Another hull might have two slots on the left and two on the right. Another hull might have four slots grouped tightly in the centre.

Assume that in a slots system the hulls that we have come in different sizes and shapes. It makes sense then for a small hull to have two general slots and a large hull to have six general slots (size). And it makes sense for the general slots to be arranged in a certain shape, eg a circle (shape).

But why would you have the slots positioned in a certain way, if the reason for their position was not size or shape. The only other reason is role, eg four weapon slots in front and one shield slot in back.

We can have precreated hulls in a slots system for size and shape differences, but if we did not have precreated hulls for role (eg weapon facing and component type restrictions) then we aren't using the slots system to its full potential.

So I conclude by saying that a slots system really implies the use of roles. If there are no roles, then the slots system is not well suited and would be underused.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:21 am 
Offline
Pupating Mass
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:06 pm
Posts: 93
With list only smartest thing is to make ship thats all weapons face one direction so when enemy ship gets inrange u can simply overpower it in your cone of fire. But with slots and limited amount of weapons u can place each side there comes really interesting choices in design and combat. I agree that slot system only is littlebit bad to insert othersystems but list system only actually makes you have less practical choices and duller combat. And having slot system doesnt mean that you have precreated hulls if ships have weight limit and there are more slots than you could fill with weight limit.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:45 am 
Offline
Cosmic Dragon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 12:37 am
Posts: 2175
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Yeeha wrote:
With list only smartest thing is to make ship thats all weapons face one direction so when enemy ship gets inrange u can simply overpower it in your cone of fire.

List got a bad name from Moo2. But the only reason those tactics were used in Moo2 was because both sides started facing each other and ships would just move forward. Since there was hardly ever any enemy ships behind you, you would never have an incentive to put rear firing weapons.

But in a space combat where movement is more potent, eg you could see ships flying around another ship, rear weapons will be a viable strategy.

Yeeha wrote:
But with slots and limited amount of weapons u can place each side there comes really interesting choices in design and combat.

That's what makes slots really good.

Yeeha wrote:
And having slot system doesnt mean that you have precreated hulls if ships have weight limit and there are more slots than you could fill with weight limit.

But how do we arrange the slots. If there are no precreated hulls, then the slots have no order or arrangement. We should just arrange them in a neat line. For shapes we can make them into a patterns, eg a circle, but how would the pattern be important. Would that translate to being important in a space battle, eg outer slots destroyed first.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:11 pm 
Offline
Design & Graphics Lead Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:09 pm
Posts: 3858
Location: USA — midwest
utilae wrote:
Yeeha wrote:
And having slot system doesnt mean that you have precreated hulls if ships have weight limit and there are more slots than you could fill with weight limit.

But how do we arrange the slots. If there are no precreated hulls, then the slots have no order or arrangement. We should just arrange them in a neat line. For shapes we can make them into a patterns, eg a circle, but how would the pattern be important. Would that translate to being important in a space battle, eg outer slots destroyed first.

If we go with slots, they will be on "pre-created hulls" if i understand what you mean. In other words if you choose a "large, round hull" (assuming we have shapes) The slots and their capacity will be pre-determined.
IMHO a system where the player positions slots wherever he wants is not a slot system, but something else in disguise.


I doubt we will use slots and a weight limit (unless the inside is list-based). Slots can serve the limiting function that a max weight provides, so using both is redundant.

_________________
—• Read this First before posting Game Design Ideas!
—• Design Philosophy

—•— My Ideas, Organized —•— Get an Avatar —•— Acronyms —•—


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 50 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group