FreeOrion

Forums for the FreeOrion project
It is currently Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:05 pm

All times are UTC




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 99 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:37 pm 
Offline
Designer and Programmer
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:33 pm
Posts: 2058
Location: Orion
Krikkitone wrote:
actually the whole point of stockpiles for each area would be that you DON'T need to run blockades
That's not the point at all. The point is that you don't have to micromanage each planet in a blockaded area each turn, and instead can give macro orders to an entire blockaded area that will not need adjustment on a turn by turn basis. The main point (IMO) of having partial blockades is so that your opponent can't come in with his massive death fleet, wipe out the defense of your primary farming world, and then leave one scout with a laser cannon there to blockade it until the troop transports arrive (or maybe there are other diplomatic reasons to not destroy the planet entirely, but that's beside the point).
Quote:
2. there would be a threshold for a blockade to be possible (one laser scout isn't enough... probably... you need sufficient numbers of ships to patrol the whole 'warp point'... countered by the blockaded empires speed+stealth techs..in essence auto blockade running that nullifies the blockade)
The problem with this, as I have pointed out, is that a single scout is still the difference between all or nothing, and all can change to nothing instantly given a new stealth tech on the defending side. It makes such a massive change too unpredictable. Changes are still unpredictable with partial blockades, but they are far less vital than the blockaded empire suddenly being completely fed again because the attacker had the bare minimum of ships over the farming world before the defender got a new stealth tech that gives +0.5% to blockade running....

_________________
Warning: Antarans in dimensional portal are closer than they appear.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:47 pm 
Offline
Programming, Design, Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:33 am
Posts: 12041
Location: Munich
eleazar wrote:
Continuing my points from this post:

Why Planetary Supply lines should be limited to 1 jump, in order to make a comprehensible interface

First of all, what information does the interface need to convey?
    1) In what systems can an empire's ships be resupplied?
    2) Where are those supply lines vulnerable to blockades?
    3) By what routes play planets exchange resources?
    4) Where are those routes vulnerable to blockades?

To meet these goals (with either the v.04 preliminary rules or my proposed "1 jump planetary supply range") we need to distinguish between starlanes which connect planets, and starlanes which connect systems where planets may be supplied. Consider this example:

A — e — B

"A" and "B" are planets which can move supplies up to 1 jump away. "e" is an empty system. Obviously either planet could supply a ship at "e", however these planets cannot exchange resources. It would be pointless to try to set up a blockade between "A" & "B" by occupying "e" because "e" is already unused.
Thus in any case we'll need to graphically distinguish:
    A) supply lanes which connect planets, from
    B) those which potentially can resupply ships, or connect to potential colonies.
Since "A" will always be a subset of "B", we'll actually be showing: "A" one way, and indicating all of "B" that's not part of "A", with a different appearance.

In my examples i'll use solid-colored lines for "A", and dotted lines for "B".

Again, all of this is simply background for the discussion which is equally true with or without my proposed change.


The following is an example of how the starlanes of a small empire would look at the supply distance grows per the current v.0.4. The numbers to the right of the planet name indicate how many jumps out the supply lines can go.

Image
#1 A relatively small empire of 5 planets in early game. Note that "Parr" can't exchange resources, it's too far out. There are quite a few systems where an attacker could place a fleet and divide the empire. Only "Valamar" receives supplies from more than one route.


Image
#2 "Parr is now connected. All planets have at least one alternate route for supplies. The only single system in which an occupation could divide the empire is at "Noxia" the capitol. Ships can be supplied over a larger area.


Image
#3 The area covered by planetary supply lines is now noticeably bigger than the empire. Ships can be supplied significantly beyond the boundaries of this graphic.


Image
#4 Now a blockade of "Noxia" would only separate "Noxia", the rest of the empire could still share resources.


Image
#5 The only possible place for an indirect blockade is at (the star i forgot to name) connecting to "Parr". Otherwise the idea of any sort of indirect blockade is silly... unless you want to divide your forces over a large area to attempt some sort of picket line— which would likely be less useful than simply blockading all 5 planets individually.
However even with this small empire it could take you quite a while to trace out all the lanes to figure that out. And this example is rather moderate... most of the planets can only send supplies 5 jumps, while the max distance will be at least 10, probably more. Nearing that point any empire would be surrounded by a large ball of planetary supply lanes, so that it's not obvious where in the middle of all that the core empire resides, or at what points if any it is susceptible to indirect blockade.


Thus i'm proposing that planets can share resources only at a distance of 1 jump, and that distribution outposts may be built to bridge any gaps. This would have the following advantages:
    * Indirect blockades are a viable strategy in more situations.
    * It's easier to see where indirect blockades may be possible, and what the shape of an empire is.
    * The empire itself has a more definite shape.
    * The player has control of the shape of his empire via placing hubs, rather than passively waiting for the supply range to grow.

Big quote for a relatively short post, but I think some context was needed...

What if the distance planets can send supplies to other planets is one jump for every 20 points on the planet's construction / infrastructure meter? This places a fairly low practical cap on the range for any planet (1 or 2 jumps until you can get construction above 60, which should be relatively late game). It gives players a way to increase the range: by increasing their planet's infrastructure, it nicely makes more developed planets have a longer range, which means far-flung planets won't be easy to keep connected, while keeping the core empire connected will be easier. It seems to nicely mesh with a tradeoff in strategy between making lots of underdeveloped colonies in every system - which need relatively less planetary supply range to keep connected - vs. making few heavily-developed planets / systems, which would need longer-range supply to keep connected. It also gives construction something else tangible to do besides making other meters grow and acting as a threshold to activate some effects (ones that require develped planets to function). It's conceptually reasonable as well, as a more developed / infrastructure rich planet would have more ability to ship large amounts of resources elsewhere.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:56 pm 
Offline
Designer and Programmer
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:33 pm
Posts: 2058
Location: Orion
Geoff the Medio wrote:
What if...

I think that works better than having stagnant supply range or having it linked to some arbitrary value such as "age". But I think that something closer to an exponential pattern rather than a linear one might be better. Something like 1 jump when the construction meter is at 5, 2 when it is at 15, 3 when it's at 45....(These numbers are just examples; I'm not familiar enough with the progression of these meters as planets are developed to give a properly balanced set of numbers) This way, you don't have to wait long in order to be able to supply just beyond your newest systems, but it takes a while before you can supply at ranges of more than one or two jumps. Thoughts?

_________________
Warning: Antarans in dimensional portal are closer than they appear.


Last edited by Bigjoe5 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:12 pm 
Offline
Creative Contributor
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 6:52 pm
Posts: 1396
Geoff the Medio wrote:

What if


Well if you are talking about supplying ships, but we are talking about supplying planets from other planets and that MUST NOT be limited by range (or rather always limited ie range 1 with 'Relay stations')

Basically every planet MUST be part of a sub group that can share resources with NO limitations (and then gets cut off from that through a Blockade)

Big Joe 5 wrote:

The main point (IMO) of having partial blockades is so that your opponent can't come in with his massive death fleet, wipe out the defense of your primary farming world, and then leave one scout with a laser cannon there to blockade it until the troop transports arrive (or maybe there are other diplomatic reasons to not destroy the planet entirely, but that's beside the point).


Local Stockpiles render this unnecessary


In that case
Farming world
produces 100 food
consumes 10 food

Rest of Empire
produces 0 food
consumes 90


Total Food Stockpiled (preblockade)= 5 turns (500 food)
that 500 food would be distributed (each turn) into individual stockpiles based on CONSUMPTION, not Production (since Food and Minerals are the only things that might be stockpiled so far... Maybe money, but that might not be Blockadable)

Post-blockade
Farming world
produces 100 food
consumes 10 food
stockpile=50

Rest of Empire
produces 0 food
consumes 90
stockpile=450

so the rest of your empire will do just fine for 5 turns (enough time for some of those high Construction worlds to retool for survival rations.... or for your fleet to break the blockade...)
say 4 turns after blockade
Farming stock=410
Empire stock=90
and if you break the blockade for only 1 turn it goes back to
Farming stock=50
Empire stock=450

There should be Blockade 'running' as a YES/NO
ie if your Stealth+Engine+Armor tech is good enough[automatically assumed available to your abstracted blockade running freighters] v. the Detection+Engine+Weapons of the single scout with laser, they Can't Blockade Farming World.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:54 pm 
Offline
Designer and Programmer
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:33 pm
Posts: 2058
Location: Orion
To be honest, I'm at a loss to think of any more advantages for the partial blockade system. It does seem to make things a bit difficult to comprehend, and the micromanagement of ships over a blockaded planet argument is kind of weak.

At this point, I am perfectly willing to accept binary blockades, provided the player knows EXACTLY how the yes/no is being calculated if it depends on fleet strength vs. stealth/engine tech, because a very small change could make that difference, and I'd rather not leave players in the dark about such a drastic change of the status of a planet.

_________________
Warning: Antarans in dimensional portal are closer than they appear.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:33 pm 
Offline
Programming, Design, Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:33 am
Posts: 12041
Location: Munich
Krikkitone wrote:
Geoff the Medio wrote:
What if
Well if you are talking about supplying ships, but we are talking about supplying planets from other planets and that MUST NOT be limited by range (or rather always limited ie range 1 with 'Relay stations')

Basically every planet MUST be part of a sub group that can share resources with NO limitations (and then gets cut off from that through a Blockade)

Most of that seemed self-contradictory or irrelivant, but why does a planet's supply-exchange range need to be exactly one starlane jump, rather than the possibility of growing to two or three for highly developed worlds? (This suggestion neither prohibits nor requires there to be non-colony range extenders or, effectively, player built supply roads through space to convey supplies further than a planet's inherent supply-exchange range) Note that in this suggestion, new planets would have a initial range of zero until they develop enough infrastructure to have a range of one or more. Most planets probably would have a range of one, unless highly developed, and through most of the game when planetary supply range might matter (ie. not the late game).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:16 pm 
Offline
Creative Contributor
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 6:52 pm
Posts: 1396
Well I was thinking you were saying an advanced planet can send/receive its OWN food/minerals over a certain distance.

What it sounds like you are saying now (and probably originally meant)
a planet (based on its 'construction meter')
generates "Roads" out a certain distance
those "roads" (if not blockaded) allow food/minerals/production to move across (independent of which planet they come from)
I do like that idea

so
early on (++ starlane that supports the carrying of resources, xx starlane that doesn't)

Hw++
Hw++colony1
Hw++colony1 xx colony2 (cut off because Colony #1 or 2 can't support a 'road' and the Hw can't support a road out this far)

then either
Mega HW ++ colony1++colony2 (because the HW supports 2 'roads' now)
Hw++ Developed Colony 1 ++ colony 2
Hw++colony1++Developed colony 2
(because the Developed colony can now support 1 'road')

of course
Mega HW [Blockade]xx colony1 xx colony2
the 'road effect' can be blockaded (so the mega HW no longer connects colony1+colony 2
Hw[Blockade]xx Developed Colony 1 ++ colony 2
Hw[Blockade]xxcolony1++Developed colony 2



I'd say
connection in same system= 0 construction
1 starlane requires 20
2 starlanes requires 40
3->60
4->80
5->100

maybe add 1 for ship supply range

and a "refueling/transit station" etc. gives 1 starlane range connection


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:23 pm 
Offline
Space Kraken
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:00 pm
Posts: 161
Goodmorning all,

Sorry for the very late reply, I was in Germany


Re supply lengths, I concur with the model were the length grows with the construction meter.

I would add the 'distribution hub / refueling/transit station' build-able, which can be built in any system. This hub would have a 'road radius' of 1 and permit the sharing or resources in the early game between more far flung colonies. These would also make good early game raid targets. destroying the opposing shipyard might be overwhelming, but taking out there distribution network is just plain evil and fun >:- D

RE binary vrs continuous blockades.

If Very well handled, and Very transparent binary blockades would be tolerable, even going so far as showing a blockade differently if it is near breaking. . .

But I still prefer the continuous system. Weather it's one laser ship or 14, or 132 with a binary system there is always an arbitrary line in the sand where one more laser ship and you've got a blockaded, one less and you've just got a relatively weak fleet in deep space ... or one research tech being completed on the defending side and blockade evaporates.

A continuous system would not be difficult to navigate, nor overly difficult to code, it would allow resource stealing, as well as just blocking, and would not suffer from discontinuity at Number of Ships/firepower = n.

Best wishes all

Robbie Price


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:16 am 
Offline
Programming, Design, Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:33 am
Posts: 12041
Location: Munich
There have been a number of good arguments for having stockpiles at every system, and I was partly swayed to thinking it would be the better way to go, but there do remain a number of interface complexity issues that I really don't want to deal with for v0.4. As such, I've decided to have a single stockpile per resource per empire, likely at a single location that must be connected to any system that wants to contribute or remove resources from the stockpile for the current version of the design.

In future, we might add the ability to have multiple stockpile locations that don't need to be connected by normal resource distribution routes, however.

I've also put the suggested method of determining resource distribution distance that is the construction meter divided by 20, rounded down.

Blockades are also accomplished by a very simple system where a single armed ship can cause a blockade, and a single armed ship can stop any blockade. Appropriate stealth tech can overcome this, which is itself countered by appropriate detection tech.

These might be revisted later, if deemed necessary.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 99 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group