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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:06 pm 
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Geoff the Medio wrote:
For v0.4, I'm leaning towards magically creating population on colony ships, and reevaluating this issue after any decisions about migration systems being added or not, and the mechanics thereof if applicable, is made.


An approach one notch up in complexity (of implementation) which avoids the magic generation is this:

* Colony ships are built precisely like any other ships.
* When you click on the "make colony" button you are presented with a dialog of available species.
* When you make a choice the population is then subtracted proportionately from all available planets of that species, and placed on the new planet.

Thus no magic population generation, just the simplifying magic of instant transportation which we have already included for supply.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:48 pm 
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eleazar wrote:
* When you make a choice [of new colony species] the population is then subtracted proportionately from all available planets of that species, and placed on the new planet.

Thus no magic population generation, just the simplifying magic of instant transportation which we have already included for supply.

Seems reasonable, although we'd have to complicate it slightly to require that there be a minimum amount of any species acessible at the new colony site to chose that species... Otherwise, you'd completely depopulate all your other planets of that species when magically transporting all the population to the new colony. We might also want to have some additional safeguards so that low-population planets can never be depopulated (ie. dropped below whatever threshold defines "depopulated" by the founding of a new colony.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:55 pm 
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There is one problem with population moving. If I have only one colony ship and all my colonies were destroyed, then I can't continue.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 6:03 pm 
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Geoff: good points.

OndrejR wrote:
There is one problem with population moving. If I have only one colony ship and all my colonies were destroyed, then I can't continue.

At that point you would have realistically lost the game anyway, weather the "game over" trigger is loss of all planets, or loss of all ships.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 6:13 pm 
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eleazar wrote:
OndrejR wrote:
There is one problem with population moving. If I have only one colony ship and all my colonies were destroyed, then I can't continue.

At that point you would have realistically lost the game anyway, weather the "game over" trigger is loss of all planets, or loss of all ships.

Not necessary. For example nice to play scenario:
You as a son of defeated king has lost all your planets and ships but you have powerful allies and want to return what was yours.(Imagine Dune series by Frank Herbert)


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:02 am 
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OndrejR wrote:
You as a son of defeated king has lost all your planets and ships but you have powerful allies and want to return what was yours.

Such scenarios would need to start players with something other than just one colony ship. I don't think this is a huge limitation, since you'd have to make a colony with the ship anyway.

If we have alternative means to capture planets, perhaps using leader-type units, then starting with nothing but a single leader could also be feasible.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:10 am 
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Geoff the Medio wrote:
eleazar wrote:
* When you make a choice [of new colony species] the population is then subtracted proportionately from all available planets of that species, and placed on the new planet.

Thus no magic population generation, just the simplifying magic of instant transportation which we have already included for supply.

Seems reasonable, although we'd have to complicate it slightly to require that there be a minimum amount of any species acessible at the new colony site to chose that species... Otherwise, you'd completely depopulate all your other planets of that species when magically transporting all the population to the new colony. We might also want to have some additional safeguards so that low-population planets can never be depopulated (ie. dropped below whatever threshold defines "depopulated" by the founding of a new colony.


That's actually fairly simple.
The list of species is all the species that have a total accessible pop>colony starting pop
As long as "depopulating" isn't a problem with more than 0 pop.

If going to Near 0 pop is a problematic thing for a colony. (which hopefully it wouldn't be) then a slightly more advanced calculation could take from planets based on their 'available' population of a race, and only allow races to be selected where the total 'available' amount was > amount by a new colony.

"Available" would be amount more than the "depopulation" threshold.... so Total pop of that race - planets of that race * depop threshold, for your whole subempire amount.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:12 pm 
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I really don't see a huge problem with the magical generation of a unit of population. It goes without saying that we'll be able to balance this with the cost of the colony ship, especially when you consider the fact that there will be (IIRC) no manual movement of colonists. Furthermore, the need (or want, for that matter) for migration totally eludes me. In MoO3 it was just another one of those things that made the game more confusing and less fun, and if the player has no control over it, why have it in there at all? IMO, we should just KISS the whole migration issue (which isn't really in question here, but people seem to be assuming it will exist for the purposes of their arguments) and have no migration whatsoever.

However, I wouldn't mind an implementation like Geoff suggested where there is a secondary resource requirement that needs to be filled. IMO, the objections to that suggestion are invalid because a) the build queue is a fairly important part of the game. Having more than one resource to keep track of per build item is not micromanagement by any means, and b) you won't have to wait longer for the colony ship to be built if you build it at a place where you have people. In a sense, its a good limiting factor for where and how often you can build colony ships, which is probably good for balancing in certain cases, for example if you have a highly productive race with low reproduction, does it make sense that they'll be expanding like mad?

Another thing I like about the secondary resource idea is that it would allow easy implementation of this idea, which I am quite fond of. Overall, I'm in favour of the secondary resource requirement suggested by Geoff, whereby the planet on which the colony ship is being built must fill a population requirement. Magical population generation is my second choice. Anything that relies on migration is un-KISS and unappealing to me.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:45 pm 
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Well I wouldn't mind a minimum requirement for the sending planet to be able to build a colony ship.
However, if the population is going to be taken away from the sending planet, that means it has to be of the race of the sending planet.

This means that I would have to have a shipyard of a certain species if I want to spread that species in my empire.

I see a few solutions to this
1. Stick with magic population... just have a minimum amount of that race in your empire to be able to build the colony ship of that species

2. Allow Colony ships to be built without a shipyard; but require them to have something like 75% max pop or more so they aren't decimated by the removal of 1 pop. This way you can send them from any planet you want (and get any race you want.. if it has been developed enough)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:29 am 
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Krikkitone wrote:
2. Allow Colony ships to be built without a shipyard; but require them to have something like 75% max pop or more so they aren't decimated by the removal of 1 pop. This way you can send them from any planet you want (and get any race you want.. if it has been developed enough)

Presumably the 1 pop would be removed gradually over a period of time (i.e. the whole time the colony ship is being built), and the total amount that could be allocated towards the colony ship would be related to the population of that planet. Planets being decimated by the gradual removal of 1 pop over a gradual period of time at a rate determined by their population/population growth will not be an issue. I'm in favor of making colony ships buildable without a shipyard, even if it means making a specific hull shape which is specialized to be a colony ship and is the only shape buildable without a shipyard.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:00 am 
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Bigjoe5 wrote:
Krikkitone wrote:
2. Allow Colony ships to be built without a shipyard; but require them to have something like 75% max pop or more so they aren't decimated by the removal of 1 pop. This way you can send them from any planet you want (and get any race you want.. if it has been developed enough)

Presumably the 1 pop would be removed gradually over a period of time (i.e. the whole time the colony ship is being built), and the total amount that could be allocated towards the colony ship would be related to the population of that planet. Planets being decimated by the gradual removal of 1 pop over a gradual period of time at a rate determined by their population/population growth will not be an issue. I'm in favor of making colony ships buildable without a shipyard, even if it means making a specific hull shape which is specialized to be a colony ship and is the only shape buildable without a shipyard.


Your assuming only one colony ship is being built at once

If Multiple ones are being built at once, then the planet could rapidly drain of population.

I guess if "population production" was used (where it was equal to population growth) then it might be a good idea. [especially as even max pop worlds have some population growth.. just normally it is discarded]

It also allows the possibility of Colony ships that carry More than 1 pop (for faster startup)

Overall though I think I prefer the simple Magical population generation of 1 pop (of any race that has more than X pop in your connected empire... where X is the Maximum pop of the world with the smallest maximum pop).


Last edited by Krikkitone on Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:34 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:22 am 
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Krikkitone wrote:
Your assuming only one colony ship is being built at once
No, you're assuming that a planet will be able to devote a certain amount of population per turn, per colony ship being built, whereas it's far more reasonable to have a specific limit that doesn't take into account the number of colony ships enqueued, and divides that population between all of them, for essentially the reasons you stated. Furthermore, it eliminates a potential balance problem whereby one empire could capture a superior race's colony and proceed to build all of its colony ships using the people of that colony.

In the same way a planet can only devote a certain amount of industry/minerals to construction, a planet will only be able to devote a certain amount of any other given resource, including population, regardless of how many items are enqueued.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:05 pm 
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How about a compromise band-aid solution:

If a planet has zero population, a colony ship will "magically" create 0.1 population.

If a planet has more than zero population, the planet can no longer be colonized BUT the colony ship can be "decommissioned" or "scrounged" for a quick industry point injection (less than the cost to build a colony ship).

This would make "spare" colony ships useful without artificially boosting population.

Population could still be shifted around using transport vessels or whatever.

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 3:42 pm 
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In fact, I kinda like the magically created population because it is simple and easy to understand.

Most other solutions presented here require a quite complicate set of rules which would have to be explained to the user somehow.
Actually for most people who just want to play a game, this makes perfect sense: build a colony ship which colonizes a planet with 1 population unit.

To all the others who need an explanation: Colony ships provide extra living space even while they are built and are populated by emigrants that come from excess growth from all over the empire.

IMHO there is no need for the game to actually implement this in any way other then by balancing the costs of colony pods (including improved versions with more than 1 population unit capacity). Also for reasons of balance, I would not allow unloading colonists from a colony ship.

As to moving population around: I very much detest any automatic migration for the reasons I posted here


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 11:56 am 
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If you want to have the colony ship take population, make it happen automatically after the colony ship is built. Colony ships orbiting your planet are autofilled with pop when it becomes available (no species selection and no how much pop selection as max pop is taken).
Have the building of colony ships balanced in such a way that you cannot build them fast enough to steal an entire planets population. And make more developed planets grow faster (more pop = gain new pop faster) to discourage building of too many colony ships. Colony ships are one use, so once filled with pop, cannot drop pop off and refill, they are used up completely upon colonization.


The following should also be done:
1) Remove migration. It has little value really. Too much micromanagement.
2) Remove multiple species. Select which species go on your colony ship? Come one, I don't want to deal with that. Let assimilated species become your race. There bonuses are not numerous enough to have an effect. If it was removed, a much simpler game to play.


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