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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 7:49 am 
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The discussion on tech tree is not something ive been following much. Not my joy so to speak.
But having just read the discussion on this page, I found the post by Sandlapper fully understandable and logical.
Dont know if it just that you hit the right wavelengh for me with your explination or something else appealed to my sence of logic. But eitherway thumbs up from me.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:59 pm 
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Actually, that method seems to intertwine theory and application too much.

I'd say 4-6 type of theories that you can research throughout the game

ie Bio Theory Level 1,2,3,4, etc.

when the correct Theory prereq. are achieved, some applications will be researchable
ie Bio Level 3 allows you to research Advanced Medicine, Advanced Farms, or Waste Bioprocessors

When an application is researched, then Refinements become available.

The UI would be similar to yours though Columns of Theory, Application, and Refinements

However they would not progress from one side to another, instead finishing one project would cause other projects to become researchable (at "lower" more specific levels)

Perhaps each Theory, or Application being researched would have a list of the things it will allow shown.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:51 am 
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@ Krikkitone

Since we are suppose to adhere to the HOI model, my interpretation is that theory and application HAVE to be intertwined, at least initialy. Initial theory spawns initial application. I'm certain we can have a later application or refinement spawn an application(s) or refinement(s) directly, later in the tech tree.

I think you are suggesting a Bio category with only 4-6 theories? If so, are all the resulting applications being spawned from these 4-6? I would envision several dozen applications being spawned for a broad category such as Bio.

My proposal includes the performance of your example. You have a theory spawning three applications. Using your example of Bio Level 3 theory, completion of this project could spawn your applications, as well as (if we wanted to) spawn construction theory level 2, application starship bioharvesters, and refinement level 4 of application Radiation Therapy.

OR

Bio Level 3 spawns Bio Level 4, nothing more.

It can be as simple or complex as we wish it.

We won't know how complex to make it until we have the techs to work with later. Cross dependencies, across multible categories, will not be known until we have said techs.

You have that refinements will be available once the application is researched, this is what I proposed also.

As for for the progression of projects, my proposal moves a completed theory over to the application column TO BECOME RESEARCHED as an application, then moves to the completed column TO BE REFINED.
IN ADDITION, new theories, applications, or refinements can be spawned. If you wanted it to, once the completed theory moves to the application column, 1-10 theories can be spawned in the theory column, AND 1-9 applications can be spawned in the applied column, AS WELL as spawning the same possibilities in any or all of the other categories.

Again, as simple or complex as we wish it.

and finally, for the list of what a research will produce, my take is you got to have at least one or else how do you know what you are researching? However, I would NOT list all possible spawns. You need some unknowns to keep gameplay a suprise, unpredictable.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 5:05 am 
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My view is

Theory + Theory Spawns New Theory (SMAC like)
Theory + Theory Spawns Aplication
Aplication Spawns first level of Refinment
Refinment Spawns next level of Refinment ad infinium

Aplicatin Spawning Theory would likly be kept to a minimum or be random chance to spawn a random Theory option when you complete an aplication, or free "points" being generate in some mannor for related Theory. If Aplication can spawn Theory then it will make theory feel like an "empty" tec rather then something that is "unlocking" a bundle of Aplications.

My vision is that Theories are the intertwined Branches and Aplications are the Fruit (Refinment is making the Fruit bigger/sweeter).

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 5:13 pm 
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@ Sandlapper

I was proposing a Bio 'Category' (out of say 4 to 6 other categories, ie Physics, Computers, Chemistry, etc.)

Which would have Theories in a sequential fashion (Bio 1 which allows Bio 2 which allows Bio 3 which allows Bio 4, etc. possible cross category prequisites may also be included ie Bio 4 could require Bio 3 AND Chem 2)

Bio 2 Theory (with a better name obviously) would then allow several applications [Farming, Medicine, Environmental Cleanup, Biominers/factories, etc.] each of which could have additional Theory requirements ie Advanced Farming requires Bio 5 and Computer 4, while Genetics requires Bio 5 and Chemistry 3.

Refinements would require

the initial application (no armor piercing warheads when you don't know how to build the warhead)
as well as possibly

previous refinements to that application (armor piercing level 3 requires armorpiercing level 2 requires armor piercing level 1)
and

Theories (armor piercing level 3 requires Construction 3 and Physics 2.. but the initial application required Chemistry 1)

Other applications? ie Advanced Terraforming Speed+5 requires Stellar Converters (an application) [as well as Advanced Terraforming (the original application), Advanced Terraforming Speed +4 (the previous refinement), and Computer Level 14 (a theory)]

BTW, this is compatible with your idea, but it sounded like yours had a theory for each application... which just makes the theory the 'partway mark' on an applications research.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:10 pm 
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Impaler wrote:
My view is

Theory + Theory Spawns New Theory (SMAC like)
Theory + Theory Spawns Aplication
Aplication Spawns first level of Refinment
Refinment Spawns next level of Refinment ad infinium

Aplicatin Spawning Theory would likly be kept to a minimum or be random chance to spawn a random Theory option when you complete an aplication, or free "points" being generate in some mannor for related Theory. If Aplication can spawn Theory then it will make theory feel like an "empty" tec rather then something that is "unlocking" a bundle of Aplications.

My vision is that Theories are the intertwined Branches and Aplications are the Fruit (Refinment is making the Fruit bigger/sweeter).


You could have application spawning theory.
eg.
Wire (Application)
+
Battery (Application)
=
idea of combining parts to make Light Bulb (theory)
->
Light Bulb (application)

Though it might be better to just have application spawn application.
-----

Also, refinement:
I keep seeing talk of level 1 missile, level 2 missile, etc. As seperate techs, like Moo2 and Moo3, etc does it. But instead of having level 1 missile as a tech at the begining of the tech tree and level 2 missile as another tech in the middle, we could just have missile at the beginning.

The point is that level 1, level 2, etc should all be represented by one tech, missile, which starts at level 1. Missile would then be able to improve its level based on how much is invested in refinement (or however refinement works).

So, instead of this:

+Missile Theory (lv 0)
+Missile Applied (lv 1)
+Missile Refinement (lv 2)
+Missile Refinement (lv 3)

We have:

Missile
-------
Tech Type: Theory or Applied or Refinement
Tech Level: lv 0 (theory), lv 1 (applied), lv 2+ (refinement)

So, we could think of a theory as being level 0, applied as level 1 and refinements are level 2 and above. A tech that is refined is also considered to be applied, so only applied techs can be refined.

See, I think it would be much easier to have a single tech that improves, by changing its type and level. And instead of having to deal with a seperate tech in the tech tree for each level, you just have one tech in the tree. Once a tech is undergoing refinement, you could say that the tech does not need to be in the tree anymore, but in a seperate refinement system (which could be a refinement screen within the technology screen, ie split into tech tree and refinements)


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 4:50 am 
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@ Obiwan

Thanks for the compliments and approval!
I meant for this to be in the last post. Again, thanks.

@ Impaler

On your view of refinement, I think there should limits for all applications, no infinity for refinements, BUT I would vary the limits depending on application. Some applications could have only 3 refinements while others could have dozens. For example, in early game the application Lasers could be refined say 10, 15, or 20 levels. But I wouldn't allow a level 50 Laser. I think a maxed out Laser, say level 20 should not be as powerful as say a megabolt cannon with only one refinement(being at say level 22 tech). I would allow someone the option of staying with Laser tech for a little longer if the refinement is cheaper than new tech research, BUT I would force the issue at some point to keep this player up to speed tech wise.

@ Krikkitone

I agree, both of our ideas appear compatible. My initial thoughts were to have about 8-10 categories, but either fewer or much more categories will still work. Based on the HOI model, my initial thoughts on theories and applications, were a FINAL TOTAL of roughly an EQUAL number of projects for both, BUT NOT necessarily a direct theory to application for every theory.

Aquitaine wrote this in the HOI thread:

" In each category, the actual 'discoveries' are applications that live underneath theories. Infantry, for example, has several levels of Command and Control theory. Theories can sometimes give you bonuses to things, but generally that's reserved for applications. For Command and Control (C&C), the theories might be something like 'Intermediate C&C' or 'Advanced C&C' which would have descriptions (and a little graphic) explaining how they are more advanced than the previous level. Each application under C&C would improve the organization (similar to morale) of a particular kind of soldier, or it would improve their ability to detect enemies, and so on. Many theories require theory research from other branches, and many applications require multiple previous theories, sometimes also from other branches. "

This is why I have thought along the lines of numerous theories per category.

@ Utilae

You hit the nail on the head with your example of an application and another application spawning a theory. I see it exactly as you do.

Based on my tech tree proposal and your refinement proposal, I see the COMPLETED application as Level one tech, and first refinement as Level two, second refinement as Level three. Until you have the tech IN HAND, I don't think it should be classified as at any level of tech. But I understand your intent.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 2:12 pm 
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utilae wrote:
Also, refinement:
I keep seeing talk of level 1 missile, level 2 missile, etc. As seperate techs, like Moo2 and Moo3, etc does it. But instead of having level 1 missile as a tech at the begining of the tech tree and level 2 missile as another tech in the middle, we could just have missile at the beginning.

The point is that level 1, level 2, etc should all be represented by one tech, missile, which starts at level 1. Missile would then be able to improve its level based on how much is invested in refinement (or however refinement works).

So, instead of this:

+Missile Theory (lv 0)
+Missile Applied (lv 1)
+Missile Refinement (lv 2)
+Missile Refinement (lv 3)

We have:

Missile
-------
Tech Type: Theory or Applied or Refinement
Tech Level: lv 0 (theory), lv 1 (applied), lv 2+ (refinement)


I thought the idea was more like:
Code:
Category  : Weapons
  Theory   : Stand Off Weapons
    Applied : Missile
            +Armoured (lv 2)
            +High Explosive (lv 3)
            +Mirv (lv 4)
    Applied : Torpedo
            +Photon (lv2)
            +Quantum (lv3)

or perhaps:

Category  : Weapons
  Theory   : Stand Off Weapons
     Theory: missiles (prereq: reaction drives)
          Applied : Nuclear Missile (link: fusion drive)
               +refinement (lv 2) (armour +)
               +refinement (lv 3) (speed +)
               +refinement (lv 4) (damage +)

          Applied : MIRV missile (link: drone fighter control)
                (lv 1,2,3,4 etc.)
        .............
    theory : torpedoes
         Applied : Plasma Torpedo (prereq: plasma theory, link: plasma cannon, photon torpedo)
                refinement (lv 2) etc...   
         Applied : Photon Torpedo (prereq: antimatter, link: positron beam, plasma/quantum torpedo)
                refinements
         Applied: Quantum Torps (prereq: photon torps, quantum gravity, link: forced singularity drive)
         Applied: Chroniton Torpedo (prereq: temporal theory, link: chroniton beam, time warp, time distortion drive)


I'd also assumed that the different applications spewing from a theory would not necessarily have to be researched in order, but in some cases an order would be imposed by prerequisites (e.g. you must have photon torps before quantum torps, but can ignore both and still get chroniton torps if you want.)

I'd also like to make a suggestion (slight cross post) there should be links between theories/applications etc. that are less strong than simple prerequisites or 'this tech unlocks that tech'. Once you've researched one of a linked pair the other should be easier (less RP's or time) to get. This would tend to group similar techs together and build 'families' of related techs across categories and theories, giving character to research ( phasers-and-torpedos-and-shields race or lasers-and-fighters-and-armour)


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:23 pm 
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emrys wrote:
I thought the idea was more like:
Code:
Category  : Weapons
  Theory   : Stand Off Weapons
    Applied : Missile
            +Armoured (lv 2)
            +High Explosive (lv 3)
            +Mirv (lv 4)
    Applied : Torpedo
            +Photon (lv2)
            +Quantum (lv3)


What I'd like to see is like below (levels are excluded):

Category: Weapons
Theory: Stand Off Weapons
Applied: Missile
Armoured (Refinement)
High Explosive (Refinement)
Mirv (Refinement)
Shield (Refinement)
Stealth (Refinement)

Now, what would be cool is that missiles (as an example) have levels, like below:

Missile (stats change as according to level)
-----------
Lv 1: Damage=10
Armour=2
Explosive Damage=3
Mirv=1
Shield=3
Stealth=5
Lv 2: Damage=12
Armour=4
Explosive Damage=5
Mirv=3
Shield=5
Stealth=7
Lv 3: Damage=16
Armour=8
Explosive Damage=9
Mirv=7
Shield=9
Stealth=11
Lv 4: Damage=21
Armour=13
Explosive Damage=14
Mirv=12
Shield=14
Stealth=16
Lv 5: Damage=30
Armour=22
Explosive Damage=23
Mirv=21
Shield=23
Stealth=25

The weapons level increase by refining the tech, so the stats increase. If a refinement tech such as Shield has not been researched, then that stat is not taken into account for the weapon, no matter what level the weapon is. When stealth is finaly researched, the stat is taken into account. What could be done is that once researched the stealth stat takes the value of the stealth stat at the current level, or we could have the stealth stat start at level 1, while others are at the current level (which would represent having low stealth tech, etc).


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2003 2:11 am 
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How about this

Theory: Basic Physics*

Application: Laser Cannon

Refinements:
Accuracy
Range
Penetration
Damage
Rate of Fire
Smaller Minimum size
Larger Maximum size


You can invest as much as you want in those refinements. However, the higher level they are the more expensive they get Very Rapidly... Unless you also get more advanced Theory.. which makes them cheaper. So 'Level 3' Physics theory would make all 'level 3' (as well as level 4,5,6,7,etc.) refinements to physics applications cheaper.

At some point the available refinements would stop... (of course they could also pick up again at some point)

*I still think 'theories' should be Very General, like MOO2 and 3 as opposed to MOO1.

after all HoI only spans 15?20 years, an empire builder will conceptually span centuries. 'Weapons Theory' doens't seem like something you would research then.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2003 4:44 am 
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@ emrys & utilae

I see both references as the same; the level 2 and level 3 applications shown would be a level 2 refinement and level 3 refinement, respectively. and not a level of tech.

I see tech levels as being assigned at the beginning of the game by the game engine(tech levels will be unknown until all techs populating the tech tree are known and divided into these levels). I would allow some randomizing of tech levels per type of tech for each game played to keep things interesting and unpredictable. One game has lasers refined 15 levels, next game can be 20 levels. One game has fusion cannons and ion cannons as equal tech but different type of attack damage, next game one of these is more powerful than the other. Keep the techs familiar from game to game, but vary their effects(not too much) from game to game.

@emrys

I would allow any available researchable project to be researched in any order anyone wants, HOWEVER one would have to bear in mind that some theories and applications will NOT be spawned if some projects are completely skipped. It would be good to have more than one avenue for a project to be spawned....i.e. Have two prerequisites required, but allow three, or four options to chose from, so one of them could be skipped and not effect the advancement of the tech tree.

@ utilae

I like the look of your missle level proposal, but I can see some of our programmers banging their heads on their keyboards, envisualing all the extra code variable needed to accomplish this. Nothing major here, but still more code for them to write. I would suggest maybe three types of refinement for missles in general(refinement types to be determined). As a compromise, I would make your level of missle a type of missle...i.e. level 3 missle would show in tech tree as merculite missle, level 4 as zeon missle, level 5 as pulson missle,etc., each with a set amount of improvement. To simplify things, if a previous missle had 3 levels of refinement of a certain type, then simply carry this over to the new missle unchanged. In my tech tree proposal, I would make a missle type a theory and application to be researched, however I would not make the completed research in applied a seperate completed application, but simply an upgrade of the already existing missle application. As an example, theory could be "Pulson missle theory", application could be "Pulson Missles (UPGRADE)". Once completed you can keep the refinement part of the tech tree for missles unchanged for the new missle, or you can make refinements start from scratch once a certain tech level of the tech tree(or missles individually) is reached. I have nothing against your proposal as is, but I am simply trying to keep a heads up for the programming side of our proposals.

@Krikkitone

As broad based as weapons are, I would make them a seperate category and not a theory. Under the category Weapons you can have dozens of theories...i.e. Laser Theory, Fusion Cannon Theory, Fusion Rifle, Ion cannon, Pulson missles, zeon missles, High explosive warheads,stellar converter,etc..


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2003 4:40 pm 
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Why not the new missle type should start with levels of refinement (which are infact applications of say armour and stealth theories in missiles) a bit below the old one, but not from scratch. Mabye just just as much so that the advantage of the increased damage would roughtly even out with the loss in armour or stealth in most cases. Same for lasers, bombs, ect. Then you would have an interesting choice to make, if you did any refinements at the firts place, that is.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2003 7:56 pm 
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Sandlapper wrote:
@ utilae
I like the look of your missle level proposal, but I can see some of our programmers banging their heads on their keyboards, envisualing all the extra code variable needed to accomplish this. Nothing major here, but still more code for them to write. I would suggest maybe three types of refinement for missles in general(refinement types to be determined). As a compromise, I would make your level of missle a type of missle...i.e. level 3 missle would show in tech tree as merculite missle, level 4 as zeon missle, level 5 as pulson missle,etc., each with a set amount of improvement. To simplify things, if a previous missle had 3 levels of refinement of a certain type, then simply carry this over to the new missle unchanged. In my tech tree proposal, I would make a missle type a theory and application to be researched, however I would not make the completed research in applied a seperate completed application, but simply an upgrade of the already existing missle application. As an example, theory could be "Pulson missle theory", application could be "Pulson Missles (UPGRADE)". Once completed you can keep the refinement part of the tech tree for missles unchanged for the new missle, or you can make refinements start from scratch once a certain tech level of the tech tree(or missles individually) is reached. I have nothing against your proposal as is, but I am simply trying to keep a heads up for the programming side of our proposals.

Actaully, I don't think it would be so hard on programmers.

What I am trying to get across is that you would probably like heaps of different missile techs in the tech tree, such as level 1, level 2, etc. What I was thinking is that you would just have missile (level 1), so less techs. You get the missile level 2, 3, 4, etc from refinements (which may be seperate from the tech tree). However, missile related techs such as missile armour could be a seperate tech from missle. So that once researched the armour stat in the missile tech object becomes enabled.

So, the end result (and this does not just apply to missle techs(missiles are my example) ) is that instead of having many missile techs, each at a different level, you have one missile tech, which has a stat 'level' that increases through refinement.

I thought that would be the simplest and most object orientated way to do it. :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2003 9:33 pm 
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Sandlapper wrote:
@
@Krikkitone

As broad based as weapons are, I would make them a seperate category and not a theory. Under the category Weapons you can have dozens of theories...i.e. Laser Theory, Fusion Cannon Theory, Fusion Rifle, Ion cannon, Pulson missles, zeon missles, High explosive warheads,stellar converter,etc..


Actually I'm saying 'weapons' shouldn't even be a Theory. They are just a type of application

So 'Laser Theory' would be a prerequisite for the following applications

Laser Cannons (a Weapon type application)
and
Light-up Toys (an application that increases happiness)

what I'm basically saying is that there should be no 'Laser cannon theory' because it is no different from just making the 'Laser cannon application' cost more.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2004 9:55 pm 
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HAPPY NEW YEAR, to all of you!

Okay, back to the task at hand.

@ utilae

I brought up the programming because of possible time issues and not because of difficulty in being able to program your proposal. Since V 0.1 is already going to be weeks late, I'm personally concerned with keeping programming to a modest amount for anything other than needed core modules for gameplay, up until V 1.0. I see refinements as unneeded for literal gameplay, BUT NEEDED for ENJOYABLE gameplay, so we include them, but my personal intent would be to be modest in their amount, initially, since this is a VOLUNTEER project and we are already behind at V 0.1 and have LOTS to do yet. THAT BEING SAID, if a programmer(s) reads this thread and says to us, that they would prefer to code all of it now, and not later as a mod, then UNLEASH THE BEASTS and let it be done.

Not to give you a hard time, but say 300 years into a game, I would prefer a state of the art newly designed missle over a 300 year old missle that's been "refined", to fight my enemies with.
:wink:

Again, I would personally convert your "level" of missle into a "Type" of missle, with the types being available at certain levels of tech, requiring a theory project and a application project. There wouldn't necessarily need to be a lot of missle types; as few as 3 for the length of the game, or as many as 30 if prefered.

As for the refinements, for instance Missle Armour, I have no problem with an intial application for Missle Armour in early game, then generating a refinement box/tab once first level application of armour is developed. Say the first level armour is Duralloy, if you have the applications Missles, Starships, Personal Body Armour; then a refinement box/tab appears next to each. If you spent say 500 RPs on Duralloy Armour, then the Missle Refinement Box/Tab would appear with a note saying the cost to apply Duralloy to Missles will be 15-50 RPs ( a modest amount compared to original armour research costs) As the NEXT level of armour materializes, then repeat above scenario on the SAME Box/Tab for the then type of missle available.

@Krikkitone

I follow your reasoning, just wonder if it fits the HOI model enough to satisfy Aquitaine's request to adhere to it. Note that I have not played, nor even seen HOI, just have been following Aquitaine's guidelines in the adjacent thread. The way I perceive it, to get from Laser theory to Laser Cannon, you would need either Laser Cannon theory or a combination of Laser Theory and something like Beam Weapons Theory.

@ Aquitaine ,If your're following this thread

Does Krikkitone's suggestion above fit your HOI guidelines??


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