Bigjoe5 wrote:Geoff the Medio wrote:By "level of visibility", do you mean the highest detection - stealth level ever?
Yes.
I'm going to use "detection level" to refer to the detection for a given empire for a given object, which can take any arbitrary real number value (and is not detection - stealth). "visibility level" is reserved for a different value, which is one of two or three possible values: basic, partial, full, which determine which subset of the object state information are provided to players about objects.
Geoff the Medio wrote:Tracking and showing that kind of detail would be a lot of difficult to understand information...
How so?
Every object (systems, ships, planets, buildings) would have a recorded / displayed "best detection level applied" number (tracked for each player, but each player would likely only see their number for each object) and a turn when that was applicable. Players would only know about the best detection level for object's they actually detected. For hidden objects inside visible systems, you'd use the system's best detection level applied to estimate the maximum stealth level of planets that could be in the system but not yet observed. It's a bit more complicated though, as objects can move around or change stealth level from when the best detection level was applied and when the object was present.
So... what does the best visibility applied value mean to a player? It's complicated and not very reliable.
That would seem to imply that the detection calculation itself is too complicated, and that the actual process and numerical results need to be hidden under the table where the player doesn't have to worry her pretty little head about them.
The calculation isn't very complicated, but the interpretation of the result potentially is
complicated, not not particularly fun. Since historical detection level doesn't guarantee anything about the stealth levels of what is in a system now, it's probably sufficient just to show the detection level at a system on the current turn. Given that, I'm inclined to like a system where
anywhere within detection range is guaranteed to have the same detection level, so it's easier to know where you have what detection level (ie. all the same, wherever is in range).
One thing that I'm particularly interested in is the possibility of stealth/deception strategies that involve passing off an object as something that it isn't, which can be countered by the other player having a higher visibility level of the object in question, thus being able to divine its true nature. This is in contrast to most 4X games, where everything is pretty much what it appears to be, and there's very little room for deception or subversion (MoO2's espionage system, for example). Attacking a stronger ally with fleet of apparent pirate ships, tricking an opponent into destroying a fake stockpile location, disguising a planet that's attractive to your opponent as one with a bad environment or planet special, etc. To use and counter these strategies intelligently, this information would need to be displayed to the player, and its possible importance made very explicit.
Being able to misrepresent things, with an apparent stealth level and another stealth level for the truth would be interesting, but not likely to happen soon. But even when this is possible, is it necessary to show a historical detection level, or is just the current detection level sufficient information?
Geoff the Medio wrote:It may be logical, but as a game mechanic it's somewhat awkward and difficult to understand, especially at first.
I'm not really convinced that's the case, but I can change it back and lower the detection of ships and planets if you want, since for now, the size of the tactical map isn't a balancing factor.
I don't want any major changes before v0.3.15. It's pretty much waiting for you to do any bug fixes with the content and/or give it the OK to go. After that I'll request the Linux and OSX packages be made. I was
hoping for some testing, but that doesn't look like it's going to happen to any significant degree. So, we'll just have to release and get testing that way... It's how various issues with v0.3.14 were found.
Geoff the Medio wrote:Within those options are things like research vs. production, though, and notably these are options we can actually implement to some degree now, without needing other game systems to be designed or implemented to support the strategies.
OK. Do you want me to implement something like that before the next release? Is there even time for that?
Not before the next release.
It might have been that we only "need" 2 species for 0.4, since there will be 3D models for ships being designed, and it would be nice to have 2 distinct "lines" of ships.
Having need for art / models is a motivation to get them made... I don't see a need to hold back adding species until models are available.
Do you want me to add/customize a few more species before the next release?
No, just the two are fine for v0.3.15.