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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:20 pm 
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Hi,

I have a couple of questions regarding supply lane mechanics:
1. When are supply lines bold?
2. When do supply lines extend a further half-lane?

For context, look at the following image:
Attachment:
freeorion_supply.jpg
freeorion_supply.jpg [ 204.16 KiB | Viewed 108 times ]

There are 3 systems producing supply:
  • Glund in the 'north' is a tiny planet outpost, supply=2(tiny).
  • Delphi-delta in the southeast is a medium colony of an average supply species, supply=1.
  • Delphi-gamma in the slightly further southeast is the large capital of an average supply species, supply= 1 -1(large) + 2(palace) = 2.

For question #1, from the pedia:
"A set of core supply starlanes for an empire (the set of least-jump starlanes connecting the resource-producing systems of each Resource Group) will have greater thickness than the non-core starlanes."
But, in the image only the two delphi's are resource proudcing. Why are the starlanes extending north from them considered "core"?

For question#2, why does delphi-alpha (the white star) have these extra half-lanes radiating from it, e.g. towards Delphi-epsilon and towards the deep space to the north? It stands 1 jump away from delphi-delta, and 2 jumps from delphi-gamma, as does Requiem in the west, which has no extra half-lane. I was hoping that when i outposted glund, i would get a similar "extra" half-lane (since there are two supplied systems a jump away from one another), allowing everything to connect, but no luck.

Thanks for taking the time to read, and let me know if i can clarify anything about my question,
alleryn

[Edit: added some info from the pedia regarding question#1, and some more little clarification on #2]


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:55 pm 
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Quote:
from the pedia:
"A set of core supply starlanes for an empire (the set of least-jump starlanes connecting the resource-producing systems of each Resource Group) will have greater thickness than the non-core starlanes."
But, in the image only the two delphi's are resource proudcing. Why are the starlanes extending north from them considered "core"?
I suppose that, to be fully accurate, the Pedia entry could have some extra description along the lines of "Additional starlanes which extend from resource-producing systems but which are not part of the core starlane system will have the portion adjacent to the respective resource-producing system be rendered with stubbed/shortened versions of the core starlane rendering, to emphasize the fact that such system is a resource-producing system and to facilitate identification of supply-disconnected systems with unused resources. For any such starlanes that are not Supplied the stubbed portions will appear hollow because the centerline will remain the default starlane color rather than have the empire color."

That basically answers both of your questions, I think. If you are still uncertain about question 2, review the detail tooltip for the Supply meters on your planets.

What do folks think of the above language? Care to offer improvements?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:03 pm 
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Dilvish wrote:
which extend from resource-producing systems but which are not part of the core starlane system

Can you explain why Delphi-alpha and Delphi-beta fall into this category, but not Requiem?

To my eye, all three are adjacent to the resource-producing systems. In particular, Requiem and Delphi-alpha share basically the exact same proximities. Each is one jump from Delphi-delta and two from Delphi-gamma.

I don't understand why Requiem should not have this "semi-core" status that gives the extra half-jump, while Delphi-alpha and Delphi-beta do.

Edit: Okay, i think i somewhat get it now. It has something to do with least jump paths to glund. I'm going to do some more testing to see if i really understand the mechanics, and then i'll try to come up with a better description for the pedia. Right now the way it reads: "(the set of least-jump starlanes connecting the resource-producing systems of each Resource Group)", appears to be inaccurate, since systems outside of the Resource Group (e.g., glund in this example) appear to affect the set of least-jump starlanes.

I'm not sure how necessary this is, maybe the mechanics are simpler than i think. It matters much more if there's a way to get two separate Resource Groups to connect via these extra half-lanes. Sorry if i'm being daft.

Attachment:
freeorion_supply2.jpg
freeorion_supply2.jpg [ 146.33 KiB | Viewed 94 times ]


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:36 am 
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What version are you currently playing.

There was a change to how supply was displayed relatively recently that would mean that any resource producing planet would create thick lanes and all planets linked to such a planet would also have thick lanes, so from your screenshot the resource group from Glund doesn't produce any PP so it would be thick. Remember the main point of supply linking is to share production, so it shows when production is being shared, if Glund met up with the rest (eg you get Orbital Construction is it is a Tiny world) it would become bold.

As is always the case, the Pdiea entry could possibly be clearer, but there's a tradeoff between clarity and length, it covers all the basics at the moment.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:09 pm 
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Dilvish wrote:
What do folks think of the above language? Care to offer improvements?
Sounds ok to me. As for improvements, I'll leave that to you native speakers... ;)


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:18 pm 
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Quote:
Additional starlanes which extend from resource-producing systems but which are not part of the core starlane system will have the portion adjacent to the respective resource-producing system...
I've lost track of what it's talking about by at this point or earlier. Maybe put a picture in the article...? Bullet points might help, rather than very long complicated sentences.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:34 pm 
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MatGB wrote:
What version are you currently playing.

The Nov. 20 test build, e6848d8.
Quote:
that would mean that any resource producing planet would create thick lanes and all planets linked to such a planet would also have thick lanes, so from your screenshot the resource group from Glund doesn't produce any PP so it would be thick.

Did you say the opposite of what you meant? This seems completely contradictory.

Quote:
Remember the main point of supply linking is to share production, so it shows when production is being shared, if Glund met up with the rest (eg you get Orbital Construction is it is a Tiny world) it would become bold.


This makes sense. What if glund were itself producing production, e.g. if it were a colony (gaining +1 supply from species avg. supply bonus), but it were also one size class larger, so that it still had 2 supply. Would it then become bold, get that extra half-lane, and link up to the southern cluster?

Quote:
As is always the case, the Pdiea entry could possibly be clearer, but there's a tradeoff between clarity and length, it covers all the basics at the moment.

Personally, i'm not too concerned with the pedia entry itself (though if i understand the mechanics correctly now, i do have a suggestion to improve it). I only edited in info about the pedia entry after i had originally posed the question and then found some info that seemed to (partially) answer it. My main concern is with the clarity of the supply meter. If it's actually giving an extra-half unit on resource-producing planets

(or is it actually planets with current pop > 0, or planets with max pop >=0? what is the design goal here/what does the code say? As you say, the point of supply is to share production, but a planet that isn't itself producing can still share production by receiving it without giving back. It's not clear to me what the design intent is in 'penalizing' these planets, if that's indeed what's going on.)

, i feel like that ought to be reflected on the supply meter. Visually, at least, it appears that, for example, delphi-gamma is actually producing 2.5 supply, not the 2.0 the meter indicates, while glund is actually producing 2.0 supply. Is this correct?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:36 pm 
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alleryn wrote:
MatGB wrote:
that would mean that any resource producing planet would create thick lanes and all planets linked to such a planet would also have thick lanes, so from your screenshot the resource group from Glund doesn't produce any PP so it would be thick.

Did you say the opposite of what you meant? This seems completely contradictory.

Yes, wouldn't be or would be thin, sorry :oops: :oops:

Quote:
This makes sense. What if glund were itself producing production, e.g. if it were a colony (gaining +1 supply from species avg. supply bonus), but it were also one size class larger, so that it still had 2 supply. Would it then become bold, get that extra half-lane, and link up to the southern cluster?
No, there isn't an extra bonus half point, the half display is to ensure there's a visible indicator of PP, especially if the PP are wasted and you get the contrasting colour effect. But yes, it would be bold.
As is always the case, the Pdiea entry could possibly be clearer, but there's a tradeoff between clarity and length, it covers all the basics at the moment.[/quote]
Quote:
If it's actually giving an extra-half unit on resource-producing planets
It's not, and it might be worth trying to think of a different visual indicator but unless someone comes up with something we're sort of stuck with it, you do need something for 0 supply systems that are cut off and I can see why this is confusing until you understand it but you do get used to it very quickly.
Quote:
(or is it actually planets with current pop > 0, or planets with max pop >=0? what is the design goal here/what does the code say? As you say, the point of supply is to share production, but a planet that isn't itself producing can still share production by receiving it without giving back. It's not clear to me what the design intent is in 'penalizing' these planets, if that's indeed what's going on.)

, i feel like that ought to be reflected on the supply meter. Visually, at least, it appears that, for example, delphi-gamma is actually producing 2.5 supply, not the 2.0 the meter indicates, while glund is actually producing 2.0 supply. Is this correct?

No, and there's not an intentional penalty either. Systems can share PP internally unless there's an enemy blockade. Systems can share PP within a Resource Group as long as they're linked, even if none of the planets in a system have a net positive supply, the supply can come entirely from external sources. Each system counts the highest individual source of supply within it. There is no 0.5 bonus, but there is a display at the ends of a supply chain sometimes (and sometimes that might be appearing unnecessarily, there might be a bug).

@Dilvish, for some reason your comment with proposed amendment text didn't display when I made my earlier post, but I think that works.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:00 pm 
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MatGB wrote:
No, there isn't an extra bonus half point, the half display is to ensure there's a visible indicator of PP, especially if the PP are wasted and you get the contrasting colour effect.

Oh, okay, thanks that clears things up for me. Now i feel like i've made a moderate sized fuss over nothing. My apologies.

As far as the pedia text, my suggestion would be like this:

CURRENT WORDING:
"A set of core supply starlanes for an empire (the set of least-jump starlanes connecting the resource-producing systems of each Resource Group) will have greater thickness than the non-core starlanes. If PP is currently being wasted within a Resource Group, the outer bands of the core starlanes will be a contrasting color."

[In addition to the issue with the stubs/half-lanes, the other issue is, as i mentioned above, the set of least-jump starlanes is not calculated for each Resource Group separately as would be indicated. To address this second problem the wording could be changed to]:

PROPOSED WORDING (a):
"The set of least-jump starlanes connecting the Empire's controlled systems form the Empire's core starlanes. In each Resource Group, these core starlanes are highlighted with additional thickness to facilitate greater visibility. In the event of a production overflow within a Resource Group, the outer bands of the core starlanes will appear in a contrasting color."

[Adding in the stubs]:

PROPOSED WORDING (b) --as you said maybe this is too much sacrificing conciseness for clarity--:
"The set of least-jump starlanes connecting the Empire's controlled systems form the Empire's core starlanes. In each Resource Group, these core starlanes are highlighted with additional thickness to facilitate greater visibility. In the event of a production overflow within a Resource Group, the outer bands of the core starlanes will appear in a contrasting color.

Note that stubs (half-starlanes) extending from each Resource Group Core will also present as thick, in order to ensure that the aforementioned visibility extends to isolated Star Systems. This does not indicate an extra half-lane of supply."


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
EDIT: Well, now i'm thoroughly confused again. Maybe my theory about Requiem and Delphi-alpha above was incorrect? I had surmised that the reason Delphi-alpha was given "bold" status, while Requiem was not had to do with the fact that the least-jumps concept was being applied to all the empire's systems, and then the intersection of that set with each resource group was giving us our bold pieces. However this disagrees with my subsequent findings:

Attachment:
freeorion_supply3.jpg
freeorion_supply3.jpg [ 157.8 KiB | Viewed 51 times ]


Here, Rubanis and Poi-beta each have supply 1 and Fehu has supply 2. If my previous conjecture about the distinction between Requiem vs. Delphi-alpha were correct, i would expect the same distinction to apply to Nemari-alpha (or Nemari-beta) vs. Poi-alpha, i.e. i would expect Poi-alpha to have a thick bold line connecting to it from Poi-beta, with a stub emanating towards the other cluster (Rubanis). So i'm back to bewildered about Requiem vs Delphi-alpha and maybe my proposal(a) above is just incorrect altogether.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
UPDATE 2: I went back and played the first game from the beginning, and now i see that my initial conclusion was definitely wrong:

Attachment:
freeorion_supply4.jpg
freeorion_supply4.jpg [ 121.78 KiB | Viewed 49 times ]


All i've done is colonize Delphi-delta, and already for some reason Delphi-beta is included in the core systems! This makes absolutely no sense to me; Delphi-beta clearly does not lie along any meaningful least-jump path. Can someone explain?

I suppose in the scheme of things, it's not so important, since as you've explained to me the "core" is just a visual indicator and mechanically irrelevant. I suggest we table this discussion, as much as this oddity irks me!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:36 pm 
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Supply does not extend to unexplored systems. Maybe there is a monster or enemy ship or not.. who knows.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:44 pm 
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Ophiuchus wrote:
Supply does not extend to unexplored systems. Maybe there is a monster or enemy ship or not.. who knows.

Yeah i get that, what i don't get is why delphi-beta has bold lines going to it, instead of thin supply lines, since it's not a resource-producer.


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