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 Post subject: Questions about loose ends
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:39 am 
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Space Krill

Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:21 am
Posts: 5
Dear FreeOrion devs,

This is an absolutely amazing game. I just spent a full 24 hours playing it before realizing how Alpha it is. That means it's going to be extraordinarily good when you get further along!

I searched the forums and didn't find much info about whether the following are already implemented / being worked on currently / still in the works. Just a quick status report on these issues would be very much appreciated.

1) The AI. Each game I've played, the computer never seems to expand beyond its homeworld -- or even move its ships out of the home system. How long till it gets that far? If we'll be waiting a while, then I ask as a shortcut, you allow a way for one person to play another person from the SAME computer ... i.e., I'm willing to play two different races -- play against myself.

2) Certain tech icons don't appear in the tech tree: Specifically, how does one build: a) the Antimatter drive and b) the Damper?

3) New colony unable to build anything: I have a colony on a terra planet that's at about 10 population, but the industry is still at 0, and I cannot get it to build new units. Is this normal?

4) Minor UI glitches: a) Cannot erase newly-created ship designs once saved. b) List view of technologies does not scroll.

5) Tech tree: It would be extremely helpful to have the tech tree and the various buildings rankable by their effects -- for instance, what will give you +5 on mining?

There are other issues, obviously, but these are the ones that have really gotten frustrating.

Many thanks!

a.k.a.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions about loose ends
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:02 am 
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There should be some AI implemented that moves ships around and colonizes a bit if you're using v0.3.13 or later. If not, and you're on windows, try installing python 2.6 on your system, which seems to be necessary for AI to work for some people.

Various tech icons are missing and various techs are being added and removed. Artists work at their own pace and it's not essential to have icons for everything until we release v1.0.

Is your new colony connected to your homeworld and other systems by supply lines? These would allow planets to share industry and minerals. Having 0 industry could be due to a variety of factors, including your planet's focus settings and what techs you're reserached, and what size the planet is. If it's a huge planet, I think there's a penalty to industry that would make it a poor planet to generate industry on. It might be better as a mining planet, and you could produce industry elsewhere.

Inability to delete ship designs isn't a glitch; it's a missing feature.

The tech list view scrolls for me in v0.3.13. Scrollbars are sometimes a bit glitchy, though...

There are broad categories in the tech tree, such as the categories and tech type. Most techs that give + to mining would be production category application type. Try filtering the view to just those techs.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions about loose ends
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:56 pm 
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Space Krill

Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:21 am
Posts: 5
This is helpful. I'll try Python 2.6, as I'm running Windows 7 x64. I'd heard about that in the Wiki, but the way it's phrased (under download) is as if the game won't even run, so I wasn't aware of the AI bug.

The planet is hooked in to supply lines, but it is a huge planet, so I'll have to see. Counterintuitive, because the max pop is larger.

Remembered two other "missing features."

The first is that there's no escaping the fullscreen view (literally). It would be nice if you could resize the window. Relatedly, running a "windowed" version of FreeOrion doesn't help this, because the mouse pointer is trapped inside the window. I can't seem to find a way to allow the pointer to move outside the Orion window.

Second, I accidentally pressed an unknown key, and the map zoomed out and made all the star system names disappear, and it's not apparent how to get them back, or how to zoom in. Any tips?

Many thanks -- this game is really well-squandered time!

a.k.a.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions about loose ends
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:42 pm 
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a.k.a. wrote:
The first is that there's no escaping the fullscreen view (literally).

Have you tried pressing ALT + TAB? I'm not sure if this still works in Windows 7 though.

Quote:
Second, I accidentally pressed an unknown key, and the map zoomed out and made all the star system names disappear, and it's not apparent how to get them back, or how to zoom in. Any tips?

Did you try your mousewheel? The + and - keys at the number pad work as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions about loose ends
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:37 am 
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a.k.a. wrote:
...running a "windowed" version of FreeOrion doesn't help this, because the mouse pointer is trapped inside the window. I can't seem to find a way to allow the pointer to move outside the Orion window.

Alt tab should allow you to get it out, but you can also edit OISInput.cfg in the main freeorion directory and change
Code:
w32_mouse=DISCL_EXCLUSIVE
to
Code:
w32_mouse=DISCL_NONEXCLUSIVE

It's probably best to copy the file elsewhere, like the desktop, then edit it, then move it back, since Windows sometimes does confusing / tricky stuff with files under Program Files.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions about loose ends
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:57 pm 
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Space Krill

Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:21 am
Posts: 5
I'll try the screen fix. In the meantime, here's an update, with all my play-testing observations. I'm really impressed with this game. To me, it outranks Civilization. But right now it's unplayable. The AI doesn't work yet for me. Some help fixing this would be great.

AI

1) The AI engine still isn't working. Again, I'm running Windows 7 x64. The program runs just fine otherwise. I renamed python25.dll and copied python26.dll to the folder, renaming it python25.dll. The aliens just sit in the starting position and build nothing, even after 30 or so turns. This is a deal-killer.

2) In lieu of a tough opponent, I would be willing to play several different players (pitting them against each other in a solitare game). But currently the multiplayer game seems to be set up to require a network -- there's no interface to allow multiple players to play from the same terminal -- which is going to be a limitation on multiplayer fun anyway, if two friends get together at the same house to take on friends at another location.

SCREEN

1) Exiting the window is an issue, as mentioned above. Haven't yet tried the suggestion mentioned.

MAP

1) Galaxies of the same size take precisely the same configuration from game to game. The AIs also live in exactly the same systems. If this is not in the roadmap as a feature that will change, it'll be a disappointment. The most enjoyable part of Civilization is that it's a game of exploration, not just of conquest. I'm half concerned that if I scale up to larger galaxies of the same shape, the smaller galaxy will replicate itself as a subset of the larger system population.

2) Because it is very hard to relocate particular objects on a large map, the map could really use these refinements:
a) A way for the player to mark/flag certain systems with color-coded flags (like post-its). (This would help with things like finding the system you passed up some turns back that has that rare "huge terran" planet that a player wants to colonize when his next ship is built.)
b) A way for systems (not merely planets within systems) to be renamed.
c) "Pulsing" graphics around the object one is dealing with. This would make it easier to find the system on the map through the drop-down list of systems. Currently the active system is hard to locate visually. Same with ships.

3) I'd like to make a long-range map suggestion (for v2.0-3.0). There is no exploration game that plots space in galactic coordinates, 3-dimensionally. The actual visual templates could largely remain the same. What would need changing are only the coordinate system and the way starlanes are visualized , so that there were now two views, an overhead projection (with starlanes indicating down or up You The view of cued production does not identify the particular planet that is producing a ship or building. Even if one selects a particular system, it's impossible to identify what it's producing. What's needed is (in the production icon) a simple link to the system that is producing it. Without some kind of link or identifier, it is impossible to know which system might be languishing unused.

SHIP DESIGN

1) Certain technologies currently make no difference at all in how a ship handles. Specifically, craft without sensors (optical or radar) function just as well in combat as those with sensors. Someone else mentioned that the cryogenic pods carry just as few settlers as the normal pods. (I haven't built a ship on a large hull with two settler pods to see if the starting population of a new colony is the same or any larger.) These are a waste of research and space on ship hulls.

2) As stated above, there are also certain ship design techs that cannot be arrived at via the tech tree.

3) As mentioned, once a custom ship design is saved, it cannot be deleted, which clutters the list if you screwed up in naming or configuring the ship design.

RESEARCH (TECH AND BUILDINGS)

1) As mentioned, it would be most helpful if there were text added to the lists and tech tree icons that allow the player to see what the concrete effects (applications/refinements) of particular developments are, without having to read the entire long description. (For instance, "+ farming" or "+ mining"). The options are far too detailed to make it easy to remember without these cues.

PRODUCTION

1) Currently the production cue is impossible to use as a rational planning device. There is no way using either the icons, or by selecting a particular population center, to identify what planet is making what units., hence which planet might be languishing unused.

MINOR VISUAL TWEAKS

1) It would be nice to have binary systems, variable star systems, dwarfs, carbon stars, supernovae remnants, and star nurseries. In addition, it might be cool to see high-energy radiation that poisons systems within a particular distance (quickly or slowly) or disrupts sensors on a shorter range basis.

2) You might consider a tweak such that the massive gravitational force of black holes and massive supergiants stars ought to penalize movement out of or through those systems.

Happy holidays,

a.k.a.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions about loose ends
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:05 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:33 am
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a.k.a. wrote:
1) The AI engine still isn't working. Again, I'm running Windows 7 x64. The program runs just fine otherwise. I renamed python25.dll and copied python26.dll to the folder, renaming it python25.dll. The aliens just sit in the starting position and build nothing, even after 30 or so turns.

Could you post the contents of AI_1.log from the same folder as discussed on this page.

Quote:
2) In lieu of a tough opponent, I would be willing to play several different players (pitting them against each other in a solitare game). But currently the multiplayer game seems to be set up to require a network -- there's no interface to allow multiple players to play from the same terminal -- which is going to be a limitation on multiplayer fun anyway, if two friends get together at the same house to take on friends at another location.

You can have two clients running on the same computer, and alt-tab between them. You can also play a game against eachother without net access by starting a server with one and joining with the other.

Quote:
1) Galaxies of the same size take precisely the same configuration from game to game. The AIs also live in exactly the same systems.

In the current releases there is no randomization in galaxy setup, which makes testing easier. If you want a different galaxy, just increase or decrease the number of stars by one.

Quote:
If this is not in the roadmap as a feature that will change, it'll be a disappointment. The most enjoyable part of Civilization is that it's a game of exploration, not just of conquest. I'm half concerned that if I scale up to larger galaxies of the same shape, the smaller galaxy will replicate itself as a subset of the larger system population.

In the current builds, that might actually happen, but the starlanes will be different and you'll start in a different location, so you probably won't notice. For non-testing releases, we'll turn on randomization, though.

Quote:
a) A way for the player to mark/flag certain systems with color-coded flags (like post-its). (This would help with things like finding the system you passed up some turns back that has that rare "huge terran" planet that a player wants to colonize when his next ship is built.)

Similar suggestions have been made on the forums. I don't have a thread link, but a bit of searching should find it.

Quote:
b) A way for systems (not merely planets within systems) to be renamed.

This has also been suggested, but won't be done for various reasons that have also been discussed on relevant threads.

Quote:
c) "Pulsing" graphics around the object one is dealing with. This would make it easier to find the system on the map through the drop-down list of systems. Currently the active system is hard to locate visually. Same with ships.

There are selection indicators on the map, though they don't pulse.

Quote:
3) I'd like to make a long-range map suggestion (for v2.0-3.0). There is no exploration game that plots space in galactic coordinates, 3-dimensionally.

MOO3 does. It was decided early on that FreeOrion wouldn't.

Quote:
The view of cued production does not identify the particular planet that is producing a ship or building.

The latest SVN version does.

Quote:
Specifically, craft without sensors (optical or radar) function just as well in combat as those with sensors.

The combat system is in the midst of being completely redone.

Quote:
Someone else mentioned that the cryogenic pods carry just as few settlers as the normal pods.

Different pods start colonies with different populations in the latest SVN version.

Quote:
3) As mentioned, once a custom ship design is saved, it cannot be deleted, which clutters the list if you screwed up in naming or configuring the ship design.

Again, missing feature that has been discussed repeatedly on the forums.

Quote:
1) As mentioned, it would be most helpful if there were text added to the lists and tech tree icons that allow the player to see what the concrete effects (applications/refinements) of particular developments are, without having to read the entire long description. (For instance, "+ farming" or "+ mining"). The options are far too detailed to make it easy to remember without these cues.

The list has short descriptions like "Improves farming" on them. The tree doesn't, but there are the same short descriptions at the top of the description panel for the selected tech.

Quote:
1) It would be nice to have binary systems, variable star systems, dwarfs, carbon stars, supernovae remnants, and star nurseries. In addition, it might be cool to see high-energy radiation that poisons systems within a particular distance (quickly or slowly) or disrupts sensors on a shorter range basis.

There are black holes and neutron stars, but we don't have any plans to add multiple star systems or moons or other complicated astrological phenomena. They could eventually be added but it's not a priority now.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions about loose ends
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:22 pm 
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Space Krill

Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:21 am
Posts: 5
Here's the log. Wondering if there's more to do besides rename a python26.dll to python25.dll. Do I need to actually install Python in addition to having the dll in the FreeOrion folder?

All the other feedback was very generous of you.

2009-12-21 10:08:57,706 DEBUG AI : AI_1 logger initialized.
2009-12-21 10:08:57,873 DEBUG AI : Python stdout and stderr redirected
2009-12-21 10:08:57,876 ERROR AI : Traceback (most recent call last):
2009-12-21 10:08:57,876 ERROR AI : File "C:\Program Files (x86)\FreeOrion\default\AI\FreeOrionAI.py", line 2, in <module>
2009-12-21 10:08:57,876 ERROR AI : import pickle # Python object serialization library
2009-12-21 10:08:57,876 ERROR AI : ImportError: No module named pickle
2009-12-21 10:08:58,305 DEBUG AI : AIClientApp::HandleMessage : Received JOIN_GAME acknowledgement
2009-12-21 10:09:08,580 DEBUG AI : AIClientApp::HandleMessage : Received GAME_START message; starting AI turn...
2009-12-21 10:09:12,732 DEBUG AI : Message::GAME_START loaded_game_data: 0
2009-12-21 10:09:12,732 DEBUG AI : Message::GAME_START Starting New Game!
2009-12-21 10:09:12,733 ERROR AI : AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'startNewGame'
2009-12-21 10:09:12,733 DEBUG AI : PythonAI::GenerateOrders : initializing turn
2009-12-21 10:09:13,372 DEBUG AI : ProductionQueue::Update aborting early due to an empty queue
2009-12-21 10:09:13,373 DEBUG AI : ProductionQueue::Update aborting early due to an empty queue
2009-12-21 10:09:13,373 DEBUG AI : ProductionQueue::Update aborting early due to an empty queue
2009-12-21 10:09:13,374 DEBUG AI : ProductionQueue::Update aborting early due to an empty queue
2009-12-21 10:09:13,374 DEBUG AI : ProductionQueue::Update aborting early due to an empty queue
2009-12-21 10:09:13,375 DEBUG AI : ProductionQueue::Update aborting early due to an empty queue
2009-12-21 10:09:13,375 DEBUG AI : ProductionQueue::Update aborting early due to an empty queue
2009-12-21 10:09:13,375 DEBUG AI : ProductionQueue::Update aborting early due to an empty queue
2009-12-21 10:09:13,376 DEBUG AI : ProductionQueue::Update aborting early due to an empty queue
2009-12-21 10:09:13,376 DEBUG AI : ProductionQueue::Update aborting early due to an empty queue
2009-12-21 10:09:13,377 DEBUG AI : ProductionQueue::Update aborting early due to an empty queue
2009-12-21 10:09:13,377 DEBUG AI : ProductionQueue::Update aborting early due to an empty queue
2009-12-21 10:09:13,378 DEBUG AI : ProductionQueue::Update aborting early due to an empty queue
2009-12-21 10:09:13,378 ERROR AI : AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'generateOrders'
2009-12-21 10:09:13,378 DEBUG AI : AIInterface::DoneTurn()
2009-12-21 10:09:56,026 ERROR AI : AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'prepareForSave'
2009-12-21 10:21:18,285 FATAL AI : Initiating Exit (code 0 - normal termination)


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 Post subject: Re: Questions about loose ends
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:55 pm 
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a.k.a. wrote:
Do I need to actually install Python in addition to having the dll in the FreeOrion folder?

Based on that log, Python isn't running properly, so actually installing it might help.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions about loose ends
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:19 pm 
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Space Krill

Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:21 am
Posts: 5
Well, I tried installing Python x64, and launching it before launching FO, and it was no go. Have my doubts that x86 would make a difference, but should I be doing this differently?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions about loose ends
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:17 am 
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a.k.a. wrote:
Well, I tried installing Python x64, and launching it before launching FO, and it was no go. Have my doubts that x86 would make a difference, but should I be doing this differently?

You shouldn't need to run anything before FreeOrion to get Python to work...

Can you run the python interpreter from the command line?

Maybe try deleting the renamed python dll in your FreeOrion directory and running FreeOrion?

I suppose it's possible the 64-bit python install won't work with FreeOrion built on a x86 system, so perhaps try the x86 and/or 32 bit versions?


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