Invading through defences- bug?
Moderator: Oberlus
Invading through defences- bug?
Version 1st June (87b435c)
I just lost a planet to AI troop ships. It had no shields, but 5 defence. In all my previous playing defence has had to be zero before invasion can occur. Is this a bug or a deliberate change? Apols if I missed the latter.
CC
I just lost a planet to AI troop ships. It had no shields, but 5 defence. In all my previous playing defence has had to be zero before invasion can occur. Is this a bug or a deliberate change? Apols if I missed the latter.
CC
- Geoff the Medio
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Re: Invading through defences- bug?
As far as I'm aware / can see, there is no requirement about the defense meter in order to invade a planet.
Re: Invading through defences- bug?
Shields need to be zero, defences can be anything (probably needs to stay that way as defences can (and regularly do) recover every turn when you've got some of the Regen techs. Not a bug.
This does mean you can send troop ships to take undefended AI worlds in the first 20 turns or so before they've researched Force Field Harmonics. And also that you need to watch out for the AI doing it to you, which it sometimes tries to if it's close enough.
This does mean you can send troop ships to take undefended AI worlds in the first 20 turns or so before they've researched Force Field Harmonics. And also that you need to watch out for the AI doing it to you, which it sometimes tries to if it's close enough.
Mat Bowles
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.
Re: Invading through defences- bug?
This initial dynamic is one I'm not crazy about-- FFH is pretty expensive and it seems obnoxious to have such a race to it. It's been on my mind to propose breaking FFH into two pieces-- FFH first, only costing say 20 RP, and only granting 1 planetary shield point (just simply enough to block unescorted troopships), and then another tech, say, Defense Grid, costing 80-100 RP and granting the Defense Grid part and bring planetary shields up to 10.MatGB wrote:This does mean you can send troop ships to take undefended AI worlds in the first 20 turns or so before they've researched Force Field Harmonics. And also that you need to watch out for the AI doing it to you, which it sometimes tries to if it's close enough.
Alternatively, it has just come to mind that it would probably be simpler and better to just grant 1 planetary shield point as part of the initial/free DEF_ROOT_DEFENSE. Native planets would still be undefended/unshielded unless they had some other special, etc.
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Re: Invading through defences- bug?
Second simpler, first better, I've disliked that Defence Grid isn't in Ships and that Force Field isn't in Defence for ages, I normally select planetary shields one then delete it from my queue in the early game.
But yeah, it is a fairly early forced choice.
Hmm, homeworlds default to shields 5 as well as attack 5, granted by the Palace IIRC? Force Field Harmonics is made cheaper and grants an additional 5, but Grid is separated and put between FFH and Deflector Shield. That'd work.
But yeah, it is a fairly early forced choice.
Hmm, homeworlds default to shields 5 as well as attack 5, granted by the Palace IIRC? Force Field Harmonics is made cheaper and grants an additional 5, but Grid is separated and put between FFH and Deflector Shield. That'd work.
Mat Bowles
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.
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- Geoff the Medio
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Re: Invading through defences- bug?
Making troop ships could also requite researching a tech.
Re: Invading through defences- bug?
It could, but not sure I'd like it, it would basically be a very forced choice in the early game, if you're playing with natives at all you're going to want to grab them really early and if we're trying to reduce forced choices…
Mat Bowles
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.
- Geoff the Medio
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Re: Invading through defences- bug?
What order to get stuff in can still be a choice even if whether or not to do so fairly early often isn't...MatGB wrote:It could, but not sure I'd like it, it would basically be a very forced choice in the early game, if you're playing with natives at all you're going to want to grab them really early and if we're trying to reduce forced choices…
Re: Invading through defences- bug?
Sometimes though, in low planets scenarios it is really ages (easily turn 50+) before I find any populated non-stealthed planet (even with medium natives), and there are many other less extreme cases where it is not until turn 30+ that I find one. If troop pods were unlocked by a 30-40 RP tech, it would not be too burdensome and would not always be forced early on-- even if you find yourself in proximity to other empires you'd have an offense/defense strategic decision to choose between prioritizing (the cheaper) troop pods or prioritizing (the more expensive but more general purpose) ForceFields-- I like that much better than necessarily being forced to prioritize ForceFields. The AI would have to be a bit variable on it, so you couldn't count on knowing which they were doing.MatGB wrote:It could, but not sure I'd like it, it would basically be a very forced choice in the early game, if you're playing with natives at all you're going to want to grab them really early and if we're trying to reduce forced choices…
And then maybe Eggassem could get troop pod tech as a starting gimme to help offset their lousy Research.
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Re: Invading through defences- bug?
Actually, my brain has switched on a bit, I'm less opposed to it. Translinguistics current text: After 0.4.5, how about we work on both ideas at once, allow for invasion or peaceful native acquisition depending on tech route taken?
I keep meaning to look into it with a macro that gives a probability based on various factors, but I've never had the willpower to spend time on it.
Code: Select all
Does nothing. Later this can enable peaceful acquisition of native planets.
I keep meaning to look into it with a macro that gives a probability based on various factors, but I've never had the willpower to spend time on it.
Mat Bowles
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.
Re: Invading through defences- bug?
IMO peaceful native acquisition is a major, and very imporant mechanic, which belongs to the whole "diplomatic" thing. This is one of those where the not-yet-implemented resource "influence" would come into play, trying to peacefully integrate a native planet into your empire would be a "diplomatic project" you need to spend "influence" on.MatGB wrote:allow for invasion or peaceful native acquisition depending on tech route taken?
So, this is something I suggest to take on once we start implementing "influence" and all the stuff that should be done with it. I doubt we can come up with a "stopgap mechanic" that's not too complicated to implement and sufficiently satisfactory at the same time.
Re: Invading through defences- bug?
I agree.Vezzra wrote:IMO peaceful native acquisition is a major, and very imporant mechanic, which belongs to the whole "diplomatic" thing. .. I doubt we can come up with a "stopgap mechanic" that's not too complicated to implement and sufficiently satisfactory at the same time.
I would still very much like to come up with some small improvement in this invasion area in time for 0.4.5.
(A) The simplest stopgap would be to have the root defense tech grant a single point of planetary shields. That maybe has the minor drawback that it doesn't quite fit with the story/explanation about the development of shielding with FFH, but's a pretty minor point and could be addressed with a slight mod to the description of the FFH tech.
(B) The approach of having troop pods require a tech is pretty interesting, and I am pretty confident of having no trouble reasonably adapting the AI to it. The biggest issue would be deciding how much to make it cost (my suggestion would be 40 RP if we go that route)
I'm fine with either of those-- does anyone object, or have a strong preference or a different option to suggest?
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Re: Invading through defences- bug?
My preference would be for (B), as more techs make for more interesting choices, even if there's only a small variation in when you choose it. If you want to grant a single point of planetary shields earlier than FFH I'd suggest a separate defence tech for that, perhaps which is another precursor to FFH. Again perhaps somewhere in the region of 25-40 RP would be about right.Dilvish wrote:I agree.Vezzra wrote:IMO peaceful native acquisition is a major, and very imporant mechanic, which belongs to the whole "diplomatic" thing. .. I doubt we can come up with a "stopgap mechanic" that's not too complicated to implement and sufficiently satisfactory at the same time.
I would still very much like to come up with some small improvement in this invasion area in time for 0.4.5.
(A) The simplest stopgap would be to have the root defense tech grant a single point of planetary shields. That maybe has the minor drawback that it doesn't quite fit with the story/explanation about the development of shielding with FFH, but's a pretty minor point and could be addressed with a slight mod to the description of the FFH tech.
(B) The approach of having troop pods require a tech is pretty interesting, and I am pretty confident of having no trouble reasonably adapting the AI to it. The biggest issue would be deciding how much to make it cost (my suggestion would be 40 RP if we go that route)
I'm fine with either of those-- does anyone object, or have a strong preference or a different option to suggest?
Re: Invading through defences- bug?
I've put this in for now so it can get a bit of testing...Dilvish wrote:(A) The simplest stopgap would be to have the root defense tech grant a single point of planetary shields.
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- Geoff the Medio
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Re: Invading through defences- bug?
Not sure if it's a good idea, but invadable planets could be limited by the EP for the invading ship's species, until techs are researched to unlock invading on other types. So it would only be possible to invade Good planets at first, until a suitable tech unlocks Adequate invasions, then Poor, etc...Geoff the Medio wrote:Making troop ships could also requite researching a tech.