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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:00 am 
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Space Floater

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Hi there,

I'm in the process of going through and proof-reading the English strings. I've got a little way into the file and completed some changes. However, I've noticed that there are different standards for spaces after full stops within the text. In some strings there are two spaces after a full stop but in other strings there is one space after a full stop. I've gone through and harmonised the number of spaces to two. I'd like to submit this before going further so that the copy changes in later patches are clear and don't get confused with space changes.

Regards,

rah


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:09 pm 
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It should be one space IIRC, additional spaces are probably my fault for having been trained to type on an old typewriter where two spaces was the norm, the last major check of en.txt was me and I made a lot of minor tweaks, not had time to look at your patch yet but it does need work.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:17 pm 
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Space Floater

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MatGB wrote:
It should be one space


Well, it's actually a matter of style and a matter which is quite hotly debated. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_spacing#Controversy.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:33 pm 
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It's hotly debated for publishing, for a given definition that includes "a small group of die hards who won't let the matter drop", within computing, especially for web writing, it's not, a web browser simply doesn't display a second space after a first, even if it's there, because for computing purposes it's less than optimal and it allows for coders to indent code however much they need for code readability while not having extra space display.

Basically, we're not printing the stringtable out, ergo a second space is superflous. And like I said, I strongly suspect most of the double spaces were added by me by mistake, while the project doesn't have a styleguide as such, if it were to have one I would strongly argue for single spaces within stringtext because, well, it's for computer display and that's the default standard for display text purposes.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:52 pm 
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Space Floater

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MatGB wrote:
It's hotly debated for publishing ... within computing ... it's not

I disagree.

MatGB wrote:
a web browser simply doesn't display a second space after a first, even if it's there

Just because web browsers don't display two spaces, doesn't mean that the issue is settled within computing, or anywhere else for that matter. Computing is not just the Interwebs.

MatGB wrote:
we're not printing the stringtable out, ergo a second space is superflous

Just out of curiosity, what *does* happen with the stringtable? What happens to the second space?

MatGB wrote:
for computer display and that's the default standard for display text purposes.

What do you mean by "default standard", precisely?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:20 pm 
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rah wrote:
MatGB wrote:
It's hotly debated for publishing ... within computing ... it's not
I disagree.
I'll have to go with rah on this one -- see the notes here about emacs and vi making significant functional use of identifying sentence terminations via period-double-space. It seems to me that any software capable of deciding what width to best assign a single space after a period should also be able to handle a period-double-space just fine also, so there should be no need to discourage the latter-- the difference should only be apparent in situations where the latter bit of manual spacing control is (or may be) apparently needed. It could be I'm a bit biased though, since period-double-space at the end of a sentence is a strongly ingrained habit for me. :D

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:56 pm 
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Space Floater

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This needs some kind of resolution as it's holding up further proof-reading. Is the patch going to be committed or is it being rejected?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:18 pm 
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Until this thread came up, I had no idea there was even a controvery over this other than the die hard old school types, I learnt to type double spaced and have spent 15 years trying to unlearn the habit as it's a bad practice for web writing which is what I do most of, and is deprecated in the styleguides I follow.

But, frankly, I don't care, if there's actually a good reason to perpetuate it within the FO codebase then, well, fine, but when I write stuff for en.tx, and we know I'm working on stuff, I doubt I'll remember to deliberately put them in as, like I said, I've spent 15 years trying to break the habit and my instincts now just tell me it's wrong, damnit!

I've never used EMACS or vi, so wouldn't really have a way of being aware of their conventions, these days 90% of what I write is a textentry box on some CMS or other.

It does make sense to standardise, but it's not up to me to accept or reject anyway, I just have an opinion based on what I've learnt over the years. Appears I didn't know some stuff that does moderate my opinion.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:11 pm 
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For what it's worth, I'd have suggested using single spaces after full stops.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:29 pm 
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Space Floater

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Well it looks like the concensus is for one space. So, in order to counter this assault on all that is good, I've found some numbers:

Code:
rah@myrtle:~/proj/freeorion/FreeOrion/default/stringtables$ grep -c '\. [^ ]' * | tee ../one-space
cz.txt:62
da.txt:3
de.txt:442
en.txt:4
es.txt:70
fi.txt:62
fr.txt:427
it.txt:435
nl.txt:80
pl.txt:70
ru.txt:426
sv.txt:54
rah@myrtle:~/proj/freeorion/FreeOrion/default/stringtables$ grep -c '\.  ' * | tee ../two-spaces
cz.txt:106
da.txt:0
de.txt:45
en.txt:486
es.txt:270
fi.txt:114
fr.txt:32
it.txt:41
nl.txt:78
pl.txt:101
ru.txt:71
sv.txt:111
rah@myrtle:~/proj/freeorion/FreeOrion/default/stringtables$ join -t : ../one-space ../two-spaces | cut -f 2- -d : | sed -e 's/^/(/' -e 's/:/-/' -e 's/$/)/' | paste -s -d + | bc
680


Alas, one space wins. I'll update the patch to have one space.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:36 pm 
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This, is bonkers, but cool.

OK, I'm about to start work on a major go through of en.txt concentrating specifically on the shiphull descriptions but with tweaks elsewhere (the stealth techs and specials for a start). There might therefore be conflicts and as I haven't started yet, if I do my work after you've uploaded your patch here, I'll apply your patch first to my work and compile it into my work.

Geoff, that OK with you? Basically I'm completing the hull patch already posted for people to check out, as there've been no objections to the guts of the work the stringtable needs doing to finish it off.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:45 pm 
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Space Squid

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Variation in sentence spacing isn't causing problems. Users don't even notice it. If it's made uniform, it won't stay that way, because later contributions are unlikely to follow one or the other convention. So why bother?

I think cleaning up descriptions is a higher editing priority, because it could reduce confusion for users. Newbies read descriptions to learn the game, and currently they're often not very helpful. Descriptions for ship parts are mostly OK, because they simply describe the mechanical effect. Those for hulls are often wrong (but maybe MatGB's hull-balance patches fix that?). Those for technologies vary: some (e.g. Symbiotic Biology) give the mechanical effect, but some (e.g. Lifecycle Manipulation) are pure flavour, sometimes going on for several paragraphs without saying what the mechanical effect is! I found this very confusing as a newbie: I would try to read the help and find it composed mostly of nonsense.

I think technology descriptions could be much improved by making them follow the model of Force-Field Harmonics and Xenological Genetics: the first paragraph is always a plain description of the mechanics. Flavor text (if any) is the second paragraph. Maybe flavour should be in italics, so users can tell it's not supposed to be interpreted as rules. (Magic: The Gathering does this consistently, and they probably know what they're doing.)


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:58 pm 
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The mess that is the shiphull description file is definitely in need of an overhaul and it's what I want to do, consistent descriptions across all hull types. I would love for a separate "flavour" section or similar and might just implement one, I've seen italics in a few hulltypes, Ravenous for a start, I'll look at making it more consistent.

But, I cannot do it for every single entry across the different things, my brain will explode, I 100% agree that the tech descriptions need an overhaul separating effect and flavour, etc, but it's a lower priority for me and the hulls need doing as part of my patch anyway.

So how about once I'm done with hulls, someone else does techs? I would say while, but I will need to touch on techs anyway and duplication is a PITA when making and applying patches.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:00 pm 
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MatGB wrote:
Geoff, that OK with you?
I don't really know what you're asking...


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:23 pm 
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Rah completes their patch, either your commit it or I apply it to my install, then I complete my patch which would include Rah's patch as if both of us work on the same sets of text at the same time it'll mess up.

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