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 Post subject: Re: New Troops System
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2016 8:49 pm 
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Suggestion:

a Training center

Building: Marine Training Center.... stores Troops for placing in Troop ships
The Marine Training Center has a certain capacity for troops and gains troops from every supply connected planet where troops are at maximum (ie if there are 10 planets at max troop meter it gets 10x standard troop growth troops that turn)
must be placed at a Shipyard.


That way the one shipyard will have the capacity of all the planets that are full.


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 Post subject: Re: New Troops System
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 8:02 am 
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Is population a resource? If no, then the entire idea of limited troops is axiomatically wrong. If yes, then shouldnt population and troops have some relation to one another?
Producing troops doesnt currently reduce population or retard population growth, correct? Should it?

Im of the opinion that the population growth of each planet should automatically generate troops of some multiplier. If the barracks on that planet are full, they should be distributed to other planets within supply range(a planet under siege is not considered supply connected right?). When a planet produces troop ships, the troops should be equally removed from all planets within supply range. If a planet and all planets within supply range have full barracks, it produces additional population growth(effected by the multiplier).

Perhaps a 'wartime' button could be added to the ui as well. Which while toggled, turns ALL population growth (modified by the multiplier) into troops. With only excess beyond troop capacity being converted to population.


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 Post subject: Re: New Troops System
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 7:49 pm 
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I thought of troops as "clones" which can be produced. The defense troops are produced locally whenever not under siege and not at max. The offensive troops are a part of their troop ship and are produced with it. Defensive and offensive troops are genetically different, so cannot switch roles.

The planet's population are "civilians" who specialize in production, research, etc. Only when the planet's focus is set to Defense can part of the population temporarily reprofile to become defensive troops - "Military reserves".


Last edited by Piwoslaw on Fri May 13, 2016 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New Troops System
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 1:34 am 
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SkyCore wrote:
Is population a resource? If no, then the entire idea of limited troops is axiomatically wrong. If yes, then shouldnt population and troops have some relation to one another?
Producing troops doesnt currently reduce population or retard population growth, correct? Should it?

Im of the opinion that the population growth of each planet should automatically generate troops of some multiplier. If the barracks on that planet are full, they should be distributed to other planets within supply range(a planet under siege is not considered supply connected right?). When a planet produces troop ships, the troops should be equally removed from all planets within supply range. If a planet and all planets within supply range have full barracks, it produces additional population growth(effected by the multiplier).

Perhaps a 'wartime' button could be added to the ui as well. Which while toggled, turns ALL population growth (modified by the multiplier) into troops. With only excess beyond troop capacity being converted to population.


Interesting Idea, but I think it relies too much on realism.
(for a 'realistic' explanation of the disconnect, troops are so highly specialized and equipped that they have no more relationship to population than ships do)


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 Post subject: Re: New Troops System
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 8:55 pm 
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LGM-Doyle wrote:
Supply connection does suggest a solution.

The troop ships deplete troops from all of the supply connected planets in the group.

The simplest is to uniformly pull from all connected planets.
But perhaps they pull from locally connected systems first. Then supplying an armada from
one location creates a valley of low troop levels in the surrounding systems.

Pulling from supply connected planets would also require being able to designate which
colonies are appropriate for supplying troops.
Otherwise your Gysache would mix with your Egassem. Perhaps a shipyard
on a Egassem planet only pulls troops from other Egassem planets is the simplest way.

All methods require an indication on the production queue that correctly reflects both
the number of turns to completion with respect to industry resources and troop resources.
Perhaps if you increase the size of your order of troop transports to 10X and there are
only 9X troops available it switches to Never complete. While not strictly accurate as
troops regenerate as they are loaded, it may suffice. Perhaps a tooltip
"Insufficient troops on supply connected planets"


SkyCore wrote:
Is population a resource? If no, then the entire idea of limited troops is axiomatically wrong. If yes, then shouldnt population and troops have some relation to one another?
Producing troops doesnt currently reduce population or retard population growth, correct? Should it?

Im of the opinion that the population growth of each planet should automatically generate troops of some multiplier. If the barracks on that planet are full, they should be distributed to other planets within supply range(a planet under siege is not considered supply connected right?). When a planet produces troop ships, the troops should be equally removed from all planets within supply range. If a planet and all planets within supply range have full barracks, it produces additional population growth(effected by the multiplier).

Perhaps a 'wartime' button could be added to the ui as well. Which while toggled, turns ALL population growth (modified by the multiplier) into troops. With only excess beyond troop capacity being converted to population.


Some really good ideas inside these 2 posts.

I esp. like that troops are drawn away from supply-connected planets. This should remedy the problem that you can't issue 20x Troopships on a single planet. Having to allign troopships from all sorts of different planets is a micromanagment nightmare and I also can't see how you can disconnect Troopships from their respective prereq shipyards given that you can design your own Troopships virtually on any existing hull

It also would dispers the planetary loss of troops equally throughout these planets and thus, greatly mitigate/eliminate the possible danger that a planet is completely depleted of its own defensive troops & can be invaded swiftly. The growth back of troops is certainly more swift if they're taken from all planets instead of just one. If you, eg. just build a single troopship that only needs 20 troops, and if you're already having 20 planets in supply, such a growback will happen in a single turn.

The division of offensive troops into good & bad kind of breaks this approach. Maybe reverse it to the old system where troopstrength only determines amount of troops at a planet. I think this is actually better than a ^2 correlation of the same stat.

I also like the bonus to population-growth once troops are capped. Perhaps races that have an ingrained bonus to troops should see an equal percentage to the growth of troops as well, otherwise their population-growth will be stiffled. So good soldiers equates more troops at planets that grow back to full strength in equal time like bad soldiers grow their diminished numbers.

Perhaps such a model could be applied to population as well - ie. once you colonize a planet the initial 1 or 3 population should be taken away from a suitable planet in supply. If it's done via a Colony Ship, the pop should be loaded inside of it upon launch - which would in turn also allow for a manual distribution of pop via population Ferries - maybe even allowing for the Colony Pod to be used several times in order to increase its capacity. (I wonder why this multiple-usage isn't in place anyway...)


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 Post subject: Re: New Troops System
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 2:41 pm 
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Kassiopeija wrote:
LGM-Doyle wrote:
Perhaps such a model could be applied to population as well - ie. once you colonize a planet the initial 1 or 3 population should be taken away from a suitable planet in supply. If it's done via a Colony Ship, the pop should be loaded inside of it upon launch - which would in turn also allow for a manual distribution of pop via population Ferries - maybe even allowing for the Colony Pod to be used several times in order to increase its capacity. (I wonder why this multiple-usage isn't in place anyway...)


Manual distribution of pop via pop ferries would be terrible micromanagement.

If pop can be auto redistributed by supply connection, then Colony ships Should ONLY be able to put population on 0 population/uncolonized worlds. (they can draw pop from a suitable planet in supply when they are made)

And If population can be redistributed by supply connection, then natural population growth needs to be much slower (say ~1% on the HW and 0.1% everywhere else..because one of the normal limiting factors for how fast a planet develops/becomes useful is its natural population growth rate, which is limited by its max pop...redistributing pop means you only use the max pop of all your planets... so they all effectively get the max growth rate.


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 Post subject: Re: New Troops System
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 3:26 pm 
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Krikkitone wrote:
Manual distribution of pop via pop ferries would be terrible micromanagement.

If pop can be auto redistributed by supply connection, then Colony ships Should ONLY be able to put population on 0 population/uncolonized worlds. (they can draw pop from a suitable planet in supply when they are made)

And If population can be redistributed by supply connection, then natural population growth needs to be much slower (say ~1% on the HW and 0.1% everywhere else..because one of the normal limiting factors for how fast a planet develops/becomes useful is its natural population growth rate, which is limited by its max pop...redistributing pop means you only use the max pop of all your planets... so they all effectively get the max growth rate.

All of this.

I have in the past suggested allowing troop ships and colonies to add to existing populations, and it's been very clearly explained to me why it's a bad idea, essentially if you can do it, and there's an advantage to doing it, then you probably need to do it, which makes the game, well, not a strategic conquest game. This sort of thing needs to be handled in the background.

I am quite taken with the idea in the last paragraph though, if colony growth is slowed but worlds at max population within supply can share population growth then you might have a more interesting dynamic (and blockading/supply line blocking becomes even more strategically useful).

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 Post subject: Re: New Troops System
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 8:05 am 
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I don't see the issues.
First, it would certainly be no more micro than it currently is - you still produce a Colony Ship, send it somewhere, initiate the colonization process... with the tiny difference that some population is being subtracted from other worlds, and that is actually resulting in a global slowing-down (because you don't generate something out of nothing).
Though you'd get the ability to build stronger or powerful colony ships once you get better hulls which can initite stronger colonies.

edit:
and while such a Colony Ship is en route, its pop is already subtracted from the source planet which means lesser production there, and it may take some time until it can hit a planet and that is also n of turn where said pop resides without work in space...

although I see your argument against manual distribution of pop via ferries (well I just thought there should be a way to distribute pop around which doesn't effectively jalt a planets production like 'Evacuation' does...)


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 Post subject: Re: New Troops System
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 2:25 pm 
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Space Squid
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MatGB wrote:
I am quite taken with the idea in the last paragraph though, if colony growth is slowed but worlds at max population within supply can share population growth then you might have a more interesting dynamic (and blockading/supply line blocking becomes even more strategically useful).


Well, i guess building like "population management center" can manage and redistribute surplus population from max out planets to planets that need more population in supply line?
This will maybe make colonisation a choice in mid game and later.

Cheers!

PS. this is way out of topic :p


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 Post subject: Re: New Troops System
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 9:09 pm 
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Kassiopeija wrote:
I don't see the issues.
First, it would certainly be no more micro than it currently is - you still produce a Colony Ship, send it somewhere, initiate the colonization process... with the tiny difference that some population is being subtracted from other worlds, and that is actually resulting in a global slowing-down (because you don't generate something out of nothing).
Though you'd get the ability to build stronger or powerful colony ships once you get better hulls which can initite stronger colonies.

edit:
and while such a Colony Ship is en route, its pop is already subtracted from the source planet which means lesser production there, and it may take some time until it can hit a planet and that is also n of turn where said pop resides without work in space...

although I see your argument against manual distribution of pop via ferries (well I just thought there should be a way to distribute pop around which doesn't effectively jalt a planets production like 'Evacuation' does...)


The micromanagement comes if you can use a colony ship to add pop to a world more than once.
But a forcibly automated 'global population growth pool' might work.


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