My Feedback

[MatGB]

Guardians on empty fortress planets? Yes, I agree they should be there regardless of the settings used. But even on low monster settings you see sentries and maintenance ships at every star system that has any kind of bonus in it.

Correct, they're not wandering monsters and aren't controlled by that setting,t hey're guardians and are placed by the Specials setting, deliberately.

A planet with Ki spice doesn't need a monster guardian at the start of a low monsters setting game.

Yes, it does, not having it would be unbalanced and add far too much of a luck element into the game.

Imagine this: you and I are playing a fairly straightfoward game against each other, we're both playing Humans in order to have a completely level playing.

We have your desired position, and the Growth specials are unguarded. In our initial exploration, within supply of our homeworld there are no other Good planets, but a fair mix of Average, Poor and Hostile worlds.

One of your nearby in-supply planets has Monopole Magnets, you can't use that yet. One of mine, however, has has Ki Spice (or another Organic Growth special). If it's on an Adequate world, I can colonise it with my initial colony ship. If it's on a Poor world I'll need to wait until I've researched Subterraneam Habitation which, let's face it, won't take long.

If it's Adequate, I can plant my first free colony ship immediately, without any Growth techs at all. You can't. Once I've got it activated, then I have access to all the other Adequate worlds and will, with a tech I normally get before turn 10, also have access to all the Poor worlds (in the current Test versions, anyway, there was a minor tweak made since the last Release to Planetary Ecology).

All I need to do to get massively ahead of you in tech is to grab all the nearby worlds I can and defend them, all while you are still researching the growth techs needed to plant your very first colony. I got lucky. I've probably won, I'm definitely racing ahead of you, and every extra planet I grab makes it easier for me to grab the next and get even further ahead.

That's not balanced, and if the better, more experienced player gets that luck then it is almost certainly game over and the other player never really had a chance.

In low monster games the actual guardian type ships should only be at empty fortress worlds and at inhabited planets where the indigs have evolved some self defense capability. My last game had a system with only 2 asteroid belts in it and somehow put that lithic mineral special on both. Not a system with bothering with early on, but it was in the way of early expansion and came with two maintenance ships! That basically cut off the map for close to 60-80 turns in that direction unless I was willing to lose ships to break through that logjam. It was just a silly roadblock in a game where I didn't want a lot of monster hassle.

a) If you don't want that sort of roadblock, play without specials, problem solved.

b) Maintenence Ships were deliberately, recently, introduced in order to make it easier to get around as they're basically NOT A THREAT. Even without shields you only need to have a structure above 9 to get passed one, and above 18 to get passed two. With shields, your structure is irrelevent. An armoured colony ship can get around them, as can stealthed scouts (well, in the recent test releases, we've deliberately reduced their detection to make this possible.

On the other hand, I do wonder about Slimaline and Asteroids, it was before my time but I'm fairly sure that lithovores, being rock eaters, were meant to be able to colonise asteroid belts, and I'd have zero problems, balance wise, with some lithic species able to do so. Alternately, I think we should remove that special from asteroids and, maybe, have an asteroid specific, non guarded special that gives the production boost in a different way.

A planetary bonus shouldn't rate a guardian ship monster in low monsters setting. There needs to be a bigger reason for one to be there.

Guardians aren't wandering monsters. The reason they are there is the specials are a balance problem without them. If you don't want them, don't play with specials.

The Monsters setting is unrelated to Specials existing, how many specials there are or whether those specials create a balance problem. And many of the specials you reference do create a balance problem and need to either not be in the game or guarded.

Unless you think a strategy game that can take weeks to complete should be won or lost in the first few turns as a result of a quirk of a randomly generated galaxy. I don't, personally.

Play with No Specials (I do this regularly, it's fun). Problem solved.

(again, other stuff I want to respond to above but this is something that really is important—I fully acknowledge it's not as well documented or explained, and will do more work on the galaxy creation screen to improve this)

[dbenage-cx]

Also something else of use would be a species matrix in graphical form that showed acceptable planet types for those races that can colonize. It might help newer players trying to populate their empire with their subject races. Searching the Pedia is a bit of a pain and I'm only now beginning to memorize that list. Brand new players would appreciate it. I sure would have appreciated about 15 games ago.

A good idea, something dynamic might be a fair bit of work, something to ponder.

Copy-pasted over the EP wheel for a quick reference if it is of use, something robust would probably highlight the planets depending on environment type for the hovered species.
These are grouped according to their favored planet type, Exobots, Experimentors and test are purposefully absent.
Zipped since .svg extension is not allowed for upload, unzip and open in browser for mouseover text (names are not exact, close enough)

[IamZeke]

Feature. It's a victory condition (and we haven't documented them very well yet, we will at some point). Research Omni Scanner to see more info.

The Pedia doesn't help. I used search here and it mentions some kind of attack but those unconnected systems hung around to end game anyway without causing problems. I've always been a strong believer in sensors in any space game I play so OmniScanner was always researched in a reasonably timely manner. No star lane ever opened up to hit it.

I've got one on a game I'm playing now. I don't have fancy hulls yet but OmniScanner is researched. It shows a an Experimenter population and something called am Experiment Zero ship in it. It's a decent ways away from my territory in a cluster mostly controlled by monsters. No players, either AI or me, there. I don't see a way to move to it. I suppose if I wasn't trying to keep one of the AI's from stealing my space I could fiddle around with it, but now the game is just throwing ship stacks at each other. Unless you throw me some more clues it will likely get ignored until late game when my research/construction is so high that transcendence or military victory is inevitable.


Speaking of ships, why so stingy with internal slots? Honestly I dislike most of the hulls because they are small. I typically end up making 2 iterations of the basic robot hull, one iteration of the nanorobot hull, one iteration of the titanic hull, a fast outpost ship with the symbiotic hull, a cyborg troop ship with the static multicellular hull, and finishing off with a solar hull that wins the game. I will use the initial colony and outpost ships, and I will create a large hull troop ship design on turn one. None of the premade designs get used otherwise and most of the hull types get ignored. By the time I get to most of the weird hulls I'm already smashing the AI's back with the nanorobot hulls. The small robot hulls get used early on to hold off the AI's, then it's on to attack with the nanorobotic types. The titanic gets used to help bust up those heavy AI ship stacks when I'm in their front yard and the solar hulls are just overkill to speed things up. Nothing clever about my ship usage. Hold the line until the empire is rocking hard and then just steamroll the opposition. I parry with the small robot stuff until I can research a proper meat cleaver.

I might try more types if they let me create something really special and useful. A nice small fast one you could use as some kind of cheap disposable missile would be cool. But a single Death Ray 4 won't dent even a low grade AI ship stack.

I also think sensors should be capable of being used in internal slots. That and perhaps a later game speed thruster you can use in an external slot. And definitely some kind of mine layer.

Also please consider some cheaper platforms it lower level that have no engines. In-system ships you can mount sensors, stealth, armor, and weapons. Something that can actually knock out enemy ships instead of just having planetary mines damage them a bit. Basic slow star drives on early ships should still be a notable cost to make, compared to a floating tub you just bolt weapons and armor to.

[IamZeke]

Yes, it does, not having it would be unbalanced and add far too much of a luck element into the game.

I don't agree. Nothing wrong with a lucky break in a single player game. We already restart 10-15 times just to get a lucky break at the outset.

Remember that as easy as those maintenance ships are to get by with a properly defended ship, the player doesn't start out with those. Those two initial scouts and fighter get killed by absolutely anything and the first scanner research is a biggie for those early low count research points. Players do not like having their scouts killed early because they don't want to waste time making more when they prefer to be building colony ships that take so long. So when a player starts a game and has to send a scout ship blind into the very next system and loses the scout it is very likely a restart coming. It's just another irritant in the guise of game balance that doesn't have to be mandatory.

Remember that I'm talking about an optional setting. It gives another way to change up the game. Perhaps setting everything to super hard and then putting this one element to easy is just another way to create a new game dynamic. I realize some folks think the goal is always to reach for progressively higher difficulty but not everyone does. I've played hundreds of games and been on dozens of various game forums in the past 25 years and there is always a section of the crowd who just wants to have some light evening fun, not grind it out in ever increasing complexity.

Let the players decide game balance and complexity and you'll attract more types of players.

a) If you don't want that sort of roadblock, play without specials, problem solved.

Dull game is dull. Specials give variety to the otherwise simple action plan of expand as fast as you can to build your empire and then throw ship stacks to overcome the opposition.

[defaultuser]

Feature. It's a victory condition (and we haven't documented them very well yet, we will at some point). Research Omni Scanner to see more info.

The Pedia doesn't help. I used search here and it mentions some kind of attack but those unconnected systems hung around to end game anyway without causing problems. I've always been a strong believer in sensors in any space game I play so OmniScanner was always researched in a reasonably timely manner. No star lane ever opened up to hit it.

How long are these games? Something will happen there eventually, but not until at least Turn 200, and possibly much later. Once you research the higher level Intelligence techs, you should be able to look at the system and get more information.

Note that people are trying not to give the "surprise" away in open forum. If you really can't figure it out and don't care about that, PM someone and I'm sure you will get an explanation.

[MatGB]

Exactly, I'm at the point now where defeating the Experimentors is an afterthought, something I can do easily without really worrying about, but for a very long time they were a massive (and fun) challenge for me, I'm always happy to answer questions about them if that answer should be documented, and I've suggested several times that optional victory conditions should make it explicit whether they're in the game or not so people are expecting them, but I don't want to ruin the fun of people that haven't yet played through them.

One thing I did add recently (at the same time as Experiment Zero which wasn't my work but is also cool), was to set the Experimentor world planetary defence stat to be equal to the turn they start launching monsters, if their stat is higher than the current turn, click through to after that (note it's random after that turn, it cannot be before that turn).

[IamZeke]

Yeah, it would be nice to get a pm on it. I'm into completing transcendence research now and still don't see anything of note. Omniscanners and sun ships still leave me with no way in and the system display looks like any other display of non-territory taking AI race. Hovering over the race or the building didn't clue me in either. I've uploaded a screenshot.

[Kassiopeija]

There's a fast engine available for the Core Slot - but I don't think that propulsion should be made available for external slots - because enginebonuses are stackable [resulting in speed +300 interceptors to pick on unguarded AI troops/scouts]

[Kassiopeija]

Those two initial scouts and fighter get killed by absolutely anything and the first scanner research is a biggie for those early low count research points. Players do not like having their scouts killed early because they don't want to waste time making more when they prefer to be building colony ships that take so long. So when a player starts a game and has to send a scout ship blind into the very next system and loses the scout it is very likely a restart coming. It's just another irritant in the guise of game balance that doesn't have to be mandatory.

so what who cares about the loss of a few scouts? you expecially design them cheaply so any loss won't bother that much. and if you really don't want to play without loosing them you'll have to accept that's this comes at the cost of an alternate research path. like everything in a strategy game should come at some cost & weighing the ups & downs is essentially the core of these games.
later on, with better vision & hulls, you can design scouts that have additional functionality, but early on their just cheap finders of potential habitable worlds.

[MatGB]

Turn 1.26K?

How big a galaxy are you playing in?

Seriously, that must be massive and my system (which isn't the best in the world but I only got it last year) won't allow me to play maps that big, it'd fall over.

The Experimentor Start Turn is determined by a variety of factors including AI aggression, Planet Density and Galaxy Size, I've never seen it above 500.

Play a smaller map (the default is 150 systems, I try to balance for between that and at most 500 systems, my normal is 300), with the recommended AI density, and you'll get more of an idea.

Having said that, basically they launch very scary big beasties that're meant to come out at a point where you've almost conquered the map and be a threat to you, we got feedback from players they were coming out too early so the forumla was added, if it's getting that high it probably needs to have a max value added to it as you should be easily able to transcend by then.

[defaultuser]

Your Pedia lookup of that species should have said something like:

The Experimentors are an ancient precursor race, whose existence is devoted to the pursuit of knowledge. Their desire to learn is unmatched, and they unashamed to treat even entire galaxies as mere laboratories for their experiments.

I'll tell you that the experimentation can be tough on those around. Something will happen eventually, then you'll see what it is.

[IamZeke]

so what who cares about the loss of a few scouts? you expecially design them cheaply so any loss won't bother that much.

Because there is very little need to ever build a scout again. Once you have your first sensor research done the planet sensors do the rest. You only need them in the first few turns to find several safe systems to colonize. And when production points are scarce in the beginning who wants to waste production points on scouts when you could be building colony ships. If I build even one scout per game that surprising. I might throw a sensor on a fighting ship but unarmed scouts are just a waste of PP.

I've played strategy games for decades now. The start is absolutely everything. With the right start, some aggressive early moves to gain productive territory, and an efficient building system you almost can't lose. I'm not talking about this game. I'm talking about all these turn strategy and rts games. It worked in Civ1 and was working 20 years later with Warhammer 40K. Once you figure out the system and get a good start then only a human opponent can beat you, short of setting the game AI to super overkill with heavy cheats.

My system is to use the scouts early and then get rid of them. I typically scrap them by turn 30 unless I need something watching my backdoor. But I don't want them dying before I dump them and don't want to waste production on something to be discarded soon when I need every last production point at the start.

Turn 1.26K?

How big a galaxy are you playing in?

Seriously, that must be massive and my system (which isn't the best in the world but I only got it last year) won't allow me to play maps that big, it'd fall over.

The Experimentor Start Turn is determined by a variety of factors including AI aggression, Planet Density and Galaxy Size, I've never seen it above 500.

Play a smaller map (the default is 150 systems, I try to balance for between that and at most 500 systems, my normal is 300), with the recommended AI density, and you'll get more of an idea.

Having said that, basically they launch very scary big beasties that're meant to come out at a point where you've almost conquered the map and be a threat to you, we got feedback from players they were coming out too early so the forumla was added, if it's getting that high it probably needs to have a max value added to it as you should be easily able to transcend by then.

Turn 400; transcendence research about halfway done; about 100 planets owned by me; 200 system map; spiral arm galaxy; planet density high.

Seems like a fairly average size map to me.

Your Pedia lookup of that species should have said something like:

The Experimentors are an ancient precursor race, whose existence is devoted to the pursuit of knowledge. Their desire to learn is unmatched, and they unashamed to treat even entire galaxies as mere laboratories for their experiments.

I'll tell you that the experimentation can be tough on those around. Something will happen eventually, then you'll see what it is.

Seen the Pedia entry already. Call me dense but I'm getting no hints on how to attack or deal with them. I've got 50 solar hull ships with a combined 25K of attack power to flatten them if I get some way to get in there.

I've got to hurry though. In 30 turns I win the game with research. I've already been nerfing my research for a while now to slow it down in favor of production.

I typically win via research anyway, long before I manage bother getting over to kill the opposition.

[MatGB]

You are playing on Typical or above aggression, right?

They're gated to not appear properly for ages on the easy modes.

[IamZeke]

You are playing on Typical or above aggression, right?

They're gated to not appear properly for ages on the easy modes.

Nope, it is on Cautious mode, now that I've checked. It's been around a while too, say turn 200 when my radar made that area visible. It spammed a lot of wimpy monsters in the area I suppose because there were no monster nests to be found. I just ran my solar hulls through the area and cleaned out about 50+ monsters. Set up a few colonies around it just for grins but nothing has happened. No new spawnings or any way that looks to be a way in. But my transcendence win came, so I don't know if it will do anything now. I'm just clearing out the other AI opponent across the map, even though the win has been posted. Cleaning off the map after a win lets me piddle around with some of the late game features that I never really get to use when the opposition still has a chance to get me earlier. Once I'm up to about 40 planets and get nanorobotic ships the game is in the bag on these weaker modes. I can create a ten ship stack that blows right through anything in front of me.

I'll keep watching it but it isn't doing anything now. A bit like last time I saw this happen.

[wobbly]

so what who cares about the loss of a few scouts? you expecially design them cheaply so any loss won't bother that much.

Because there is very little need to ever build a scout again. Once you have your first sensor research done the planet sensors do the rest. You only need them in the first few turns to find several safe systems to colonize. And when production points are scarce in the beginning who wants to waste production points on scouts when you could be building colony ships. If I build even one scout per game that surprising. I might throw a sensor on a fighting ship but unarmed scouts are just a waste of PP.

I think you're underestimating the usefulness of scouts here, I use them for most of the game. They actually save more PP then they cost. Combat vessels cost much much more then scouts & you need far fewer of them if you can see straight away you've got the dominant force rather then waiting for guaranteed overkill.

I've played strategy games for decades now. The start is absolutely everything.

You get a much quicker start using scouts then not. Look at the minimum turns to build a colony ship+move it. That's about how quick the better invading races can grab an already grown colony if you can see enough of the map to find a target & how many troop ships you need. For that you need additional scouts.

That may not the style of play you enjoy, fair enough if so. I'd just be slow to consider scouts a waste without trying a more aggresive, faster style of expansion. 'cause this is where scouts actually shine.