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 Post subject: Re: Experimenters
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:34 am 
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Space Krill
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Just tried a new strategy for the Experimentors. This time, I Nova Bombed them. And.... nothing about it at all in the SitRep. It was the first time I've ever set off a Nova Bomb, so I wasn't really sure what to expect, but I figured that there might be two reports:

*) "system name" was obliterated by a Nova Bomb.

which would happen regardless of the target (didn't see that -- feels like an omission to me), and then given that the target was the experimentors specifically,

*) You won! You've rid the galaxy of the threat of the Experimentors!

(or however that message goes when you capture their planet). Is this not a valid win condition? If it's possible to win by capturing the Experimentor outpost planet, shouldn't it also be just as good for a win to obliterate it clear out of the galaxy?


BTW, as a first-time Nova Bomb user, I have to say... I like the slowly expanding debris ring. Nice touch!


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 Post subject: Re: Experimenters
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:03 am 
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Creative Contributor
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You're right, there's no Nova Bomb sitrep at all, that needs fixing.

The "Victory" sitreps for the Experimentors are generated by the building when you capture it, if you blow it up you can't capture it so it won't, currently, generate a victory message. Whether it should of course is a slightly different discussion.

Issue #1085 for nova bomb sitrep opened, if anyone fancies it go ahead else I'll give it a look at some point.

What do people think about nova bombing the experimentors, should it count as a victory?

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 Post subject: Re: Experimenters
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:42 pm 
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Release Manager, Design
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MatGB wrote:
What do people think about nova bombing the experimentors, should it count as a victory?
The point is to rid the galaxy of them, which nove bombing does. So, yes.


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 Post subject: Re: Experimenters
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:44 pm 
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Space Krill
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MatGB wrote:
Issue #1085 for nova bomb sitrep opened, if anyone fancies it go ahead else I'll give it a look at some point.


Thanks!

MatGB wrote:
What do people think about nova bombing the experimentors, should it count as a victory?


Actually, playing Devil's advocate against myself, I might also ask the question, "Does the new starlane bore make an experimentor win too easy?" If you can get to them before they start spawning nasty endgame monsters, it seems that whatever way you choose to dispense of them is much easier and quicker than a win by research (expensive and risky) or by total conquest. When you had to face and contain the endgame monsters, you already needed a fleet and production capacity strong enough to all but ensure an eventual win by conquest. Now, not so much. With a starlane bore and a mediocre mid-game fleet, you could win just by being lucky enough to get to the experimentors first.

Just to be clear, I do think that all means of taking care of the experimentors once and for all should be treated equally in terms of a game victory, be that "yes, it's a win", or "no, it isn't, keep playing".

But the more I think about it, the more I see that the addition of the starlane bore reduces the bar for an experimentor win to the point where it's a potential game balance issue. It's worth some thought and discussion over what could / should be done about that. Off the top of my head, possibilities include:

*) Make an experimentor capture / obliteration not a win condition anymore. This could be OK. Maybe a capture could confer some other bonus to keep it a worthwhile side goal. Maybe not having to fight off endgame monsters is bonus enough.
*) Make it so that the starlane bore just plain doesn't work to access the experimentor system. You're on their terms, and only their terms for access, which means dealing with endgame monsters.

Other options? I bet people more creative than I can come up with a third and fourth clever way to handle this which would be worth entertaining.


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 Post subject: Re: Experimenters
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:48 pm 
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Release Manager, Design
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chaz572 wrote:
Make it so that the starlane bore just plain doesn't work to access the experimentor system. You're on their terms, and only their terms for access, which means dealing with endgame monsters.
This. They are incredibly advanced, so they can be expected to know how to block opening new starlanes into their system.


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 Post subject: Re: Experimenters
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:13 pm 
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Vacuum Dragon

Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:15 pm
Posts: 507
The problem is, especially for those of us that play smaller games, you can end up waiting 50 turns for them to come out on their own. The bores took care of that problem.

Really, if you're ready for the Experimenters, then a few Black Krakens at the start won't make a significant difference.


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 Post subject: Re: Experimenters
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 1:55 am 
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Both are correct, the Bore solves the "wait 50 turns" issue, but it also makes defeating them too easy.

One stopgap I mean to try is to script the effects of Experiment Zero to apply to neighbouring systems as well, and ensure they're prioritised to happen after the Bore opens the lane, that would make it distinctly more of a challenge. Haven't had time to script it yet though.

And yeah, the Bore isn't balanced yet, the Experimentors are one of the biggest balance holes they cause.

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 Post subject: Re: Experimenters
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:12 pm 
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Dyson Forest
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Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:18 am
Posts: 214
In the scripting folder, which txt file controls the frequency for the Experimenter Outpost to be generated at the start of a game?
I'd like to bump up that number, so that it is almost guaranteed to happen.

A long time ago, I found the appropriate file, which was part of the Experimenter description. I increased the number for the variable, shortened the minimum starlane distance to other species (which was a hinderance in smaller or compact galaxies), and I was good to go. (That same description had a limit of 1 generated, so no harm in cranking up the frequency.)
At some point, there was a reorganization, and I don't know where to find that anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: Experimenters
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:26 pm 
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Release Manager, Design
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Location: Sol III
/default/scripting/monster_fleets.inf


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