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 Post subject: Starving Exobots!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 6:08 pm 
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Space Floater

Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 10:23 am
Posts: 15
Location: Austria
Version 4.6
Glitchreport, Exobots need food
Searched the forum.

So I found out, Exobots need to eat. They profit from symbiotic biology on a asteroid field. They start with -6 pop. Cap on asteroids and you have to research food techs to get them over 0 pop cap. I got a screenshot if you want to see it (just tell me how to upload the jpeg ;) )


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 Post subject: Re: Starving Exobots!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 6:12 pm 
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Programming, Design, Admin
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Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:33 am
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Location: Munich
CaptainTofu wrote:
(just tell me how to upload the jpeg ;) )
Use the Upload attachment feature of the forum interface?


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 Post subject: Re: Starving Exobots!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:04 pm 
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Space Floater

Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 10:23 am
Posts: 15
Location: Austria
oops, you are right. Here we go:


Attachments:
FreeOrion01.jpg
FreeOrion01.jpg [ 212.88 KiB | Viewed 416 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Starving Exobots!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 10:46 pm 
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There are no food techs, food was removed from the game years ago. All species currently benefit from all Growth techs, we've discussed changing some of them but it's in the nascent planning stages.

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Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.


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 Post subject: Re: Starving Exobots!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 10:51 pm 
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Pupating Mass

Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:32 am
Posts: 97
Location: Great White North Eh
In the above screenshot the Exobots will die out on those asteroids as currenly they have a target population of zero.

When you add the negative 6 factor for asteroids being a 'poor' environment for Exobots, along with your two techs that improve your ability to boost population, (Symbiotic Biology & Subterranean Habitation), that add a factor of plus 3 each, they total to an expected population of zero. Those poor Exobots will die in about 10 turns if you don't do something before them to help their situation.

One way would be to utilise a planetary special that improves growth for Robotic species, (which includes Exobots). To do this you would need to have control over a planet with one of the necessary specials and set that planet's focus to 'Growth'. You can find the list of possible Specials in the Pedia. An example of one that would help Robotic species would be Ambient Superconductors.

Another way to boost their population would be to research another tech that improves populations in poor environments, such as Xenological Genetics.

A third way, which isn't really helpful for Exobots but can help other specieis, would be to capture their homeworld, (which you can find listed near the bottom of their Pedia entry), and set it to Growth focus. This will boost all of connected planets for that species. However, I don't think Exobots ever have homeworlds, so this doesn't apply to them?

Pedia entries that would help explain this better would be 'Environment', 'Growth Focus' and 'Planetary Focus', all under the heading *Game Concepts*

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 Post subject: Re: Starving Exobots!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 11:06 pm 
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Space Floater

Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 10:23 am
Posts: 15
Location: Austria
Thank you

It was never a problem, I researched another growth tech. It was just a nasty illogical surprise. I expected those techs to have a perk like "only for organic, lithic and photosomething beings" so machine species are excluded.

Kinda off topic: Do I miss something? Is freeorion.org also a wikia page? Because I cannot find simple topics like difficulty settings, AI levels, combat (...). I would like to read up, why all the AI ships have almost double the attack strength, they should have from their weapons and race. I find it unbelievable, that there are no articles for these topics.


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 Post subject: Re: Starving Exobots!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 11:22 pm 
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Pupating Mass

Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:32 am
Posts: 97
Location: Great White North Eh
The #1 place to learn the details about the game is the Pedia, the question mark icon at the top right of your game window. When you access the Pedia it might be focused on some specific topic related to whatever you last clicked on in the game. If you click the 'up' arrow at the bottom right of the Pedia's window it will take you to the main index and you can navigate to various topics from there. As this game is a work in progress they are not always up to date but usually they are.

Many values in the game have built in tools to explain them, for example the attack values of a certain ship. If you select an enemy fleet, and select a ship from it, and then hover your cursor over the damage number for that specific ship on the bottom half of the fleet screen, it will show how that total is arrived at. For example a ship that does 27 damage might have 3 lasers that for the ship's species and tech level currently do 9 damage each.

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 Post subject: Re: Starving Exobots!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:28 am 
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Space Kraken

Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:57 am
Posts: 105
LoL this is funny i laughed when i read this ... send them oxegen too they cant breath ahhhh !

here is the problem i think.

Quote:
environments = [
type = Swamp environment = Hostile
type = Toxic environment = Poor
type = Inferno environment = Adequate
type = Radiated environment = Adequate
type = Barren environment = Adequate
type = Tundra environment = Poor
type = Desert environment = Hostile
type = Terran environment = Hostile
type = Ocean environment = Hostile
type = Asteroids environment = Poor
type = Gasgiant environment = Uninhabitable
]


I would like to point out that electronics actually do better without air in cold temperatures. That radiation is in fact over time cancer to them, such that in spacecraft all electronic parts are basically radiation shielded. They can pull power from the sun thru solar panels and im guessing thru there space age fusion or futuristic generators. Mining any-were like on asteroids i would think would be easiest of all for them provided they dig in and don't jump off lol.

Im thinking it should be more like.

Quote:
environments = [
type = Swamp environment = Hostile // mud rust and swamp monsters they will eat anything its the worst
type = Toxic environment = Adequate // provided were not talking about hydrocloric acid rain
type = Inferno environment = Poor // heats bad for parts so is lava
type = Radiated environment = Hostile // radiation saturates electronics over time its way bad in fact the only thing that thrives in high radiation is some molds un-shielded electronics die faster then people.
type = Barren environment = Good// its probably perfect for them robo homeworld
type = Tundra environment = Poor // kinda like a swamp they would probably need to dig in
type = Desert environment = Adequate // its fine except for the things beneath the sand
type = Terran environment = Adequate // its fine except for people with lazer guns who want them for spare parts.
type = Ocean environment = Poor // most robots are afraid of water, lets hope there is a island call it robo island
type = Asteroids environment = Good // its perfect
type = Gasgiant environment = Uninhabitable // the atmosphere or the moons :)
]


Isn't the whole point to them is that even though they suck you can build them anywere.


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 Post subject: Re: Starving Exobots!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:17 am 
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Space Floater

Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 10:23 am
Posts: 15
Location: Austria
UrshMost wrote:
The #1 place to learn the details about the game is the Pedia, the question mark icon at the top right of your game window. When you access the Pedia it might be focused on some specific topic related to whatever you last clicked on in the game. If you click the 'up' arrow at the bottom right of the Pedia's window it will take you to the main index and you can navigate to various topics from there. As this game is a work in progress they are not always up to date but usually they are.

Many values in the game have built in tools to explain them, for example the attack values of a certain ship. If you select an enemy fleet, and select a ship from it, and then hover your cursor over the damage number for that specific ship on the bottom half of the fleet screen, it will show how that total is arrived at. For example a ship that does 27 damage might have 3 lasers that for the ship's species and tech level currently do 9 damage each.


Okay, seems like, I did everything right. That legitimates a new topic for me: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=10234


@xlightwavex
I totally agree. Maybe repost it in the game-design section as a new topic? I think, it would be overseen here, since it is a concept change.


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 Post subject: Re: Starving Exobots!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:05 pm 
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Release Manager, Design
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Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:56 pm
Posts: 4287
Location: Sol III
The hilarity of robotic (and other non-organic) species getting boosts from techs that are clearly intended for organic species (like all the genetic stuff, Symbiotic Biology etc. etc.) has been brought up repeatedly (to no one's surprise). That's one of the remnants of ancient concepts that have changed during time, in this case that originally there have been only organic races. This is the reason why all the names and fluff explanations for the pop boosting techs have been created with organic species in mind.

Later the concept of other types of races (lithic, robotic, phototrophic, self-sustaining) has been introduced, but all the pop related techs never have been updated to reflect that. Which resulted in aformentioned hilarity, which persists to this day. We know we need to revise the tech tree in that departement, and it's on the todo list (together with thousands of other things we want to get done), where it patiently waits for its time to come... ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Starving Exobots!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:13 pm 
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Dyson Forest
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Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 9:56 pm
Posts: 202
Location: Sweden
Interesting read ^^
Thanks for the clarification, Vezzra! It's comforting to know that it waits patiently on the to-do-list. :D
Adding more depth to an already deep simulation (yes, I prefer to call it a simulation) is something we all can wait for, patiently. Keep up the good work!

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 Post subject: Re: Starving Exobots!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:53 pm 
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Programmer

Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:08 am
Posts: 359
Being as they are the only option to populate asteroids, having them at Poor is easily rationalized.

I'm curious if Exobots are specifically balanced to favor Terran/Ocean species, if so please ignore the rest of my post ;)

Starting with a species with a Good environment, where Exobots are Hostile, gives the Exobot tech a higher value.
That tech gives these empires an advantage for populating planets, which other starting species have no option for (or to a lower degree).

I've long wondered if another version/alternative of Exobots is warranted concerning those other species
(e.g. why would a species design robots to colonize planets they are already suited for?).

A few options I can expand on if wanted:
  • Create 3 versions of Exobots, access to a species and the exobot tech gives access to the appropriate exobot type.
  • Create 9 versions, each with a single adequate and 2 poor environments(plus asteroids). Grant 2 to each species for even distribution.
  • Break the wheel and maintain one species, this species could cycle environments: Adequate->Poor->Hostile. Requires a good bit of special handling.
  • Scrap Exobots in favor of some mechanic with limited population and additional restrictions (e.g. no ProductionCenter).


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 Post subject: Re: Starving Exobots!
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:36 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:45 pm
Posts: 3286
They were introduced back when there was the choice of Humans, Humans and Humans as playable species, so yes, they advantage Terran dwellers. Actually, it's possible there were a few other organics, I wasn't involved at the time, merely playing.

It's been suggested that another couple are introduced, someone proposed organis and lithic versions but I never did understand the rationale. I've long favoured having them Adequate everywhere except Asteroids, if we can have singing robotic subs you can design a type of exobot that swims, etc.

But while I tried it for a bit on my own machine I never got around to working it up properly.

I also favour trying Asteroids set to Hostile for quite a few species, I'd put money on the first baby born off Earth being either on the Moon or an asteroid, far too many resources for them not to be made into habitats fairly early on. But that would need even more extensive testing as it could open a huge can of worms. At least one of the Lithic species is meant tob e able to survive in open space for a bit, they definitely should get to colonise there, as should the asteroid mining resurrection species (Kilandow?).

Having multiple different species/files, etc might make more sense but it'd be a pain to keep track of, keeping it simple is my preferred as long as it stays balanced.

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Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.


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 Post subject: Re: Starving Exobots!
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:55 am 
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Space Kraken

Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:57 am
Posts: 105
You should probably just think of them as a low tech robotic species that you can incorporate into your empire by unlocking them. The primary trait they should have is to be able to colonize things, robots would be good at colonizing. In preparation to get it terra-formed to another type.

Their favorite planet should be asteroids for everyone that would make them interesting. They should just suck at everything else. You can simply tweek the species file to do that.

I really think you ought to have just one Exobot species for everyone. Then get upgraded versions in the tech tree i think with technology that lets you change them each race can pick the kind of change they want to make or you can have a series of them kinda like robo evolution maybe both.

They should be best at colonizing things lower tech robots would be good at colonizing to generate industry. At higher tech with force fields and miracle tech you would just transform a planet over time and they should be able to colonize just about anything first to start that up. They should just be horrible at defense offense.

like in the list i posted they would actually stink at most things they are currently rated good for and be good at things they are currently rated bad for.

Until they got force field body's, effector tools, ndimentional cpu's, funny names and stuff like that lol. (if you ever read any of the culture books you know what im talkin about)

Who knows in 100 years they might have them building crap on the moon en mass in real life.

Proto-types
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8YjvHYbZ9w

Dogs and robots.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7nhygaGOmo

Evolution morpheus.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tf7IEVTDjng

The future is our time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVlhMGQgDkY


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 Post subject: Re: Starving Exobots!
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:02 am 
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Dyson Forest
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Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:12 am
Posts: 224
dbenage-cx wrote:
Scrap Exobots in favor of some mechanic with limited population and additional restrictions (e.g. no ProductionCenter).


I've been giving this a lot of thought and I find myself leaning in this direction.
Exobots cost PP's to build so they should not "reproduce" on their own for free.
My proposal, to found an Exobot colony you build an Exobot ship. When it colonizes a planet or asteroid field it creates an Exobot colony with a population of one Exobot. The only way to increase the size of an Exobot colony would be to send more Exobot colony ships or have the Exobot planet build them with PP's. When you build them, after a reasonable amount of time, the Exobot population would increase by one.
Planetary suitability ratings should have no effect on Exobots. Technologies that allow larger populations should have no effect on Exobots. I would also make Exobots bad at industry and only give them a %50 rate.
Exobot colonies should only produce PP's and cannot set a Focus.
The main focus of Exobots should be to make hostile worlds more suitable for your primary species.
Pretty much Exobots only purpose in the game should be to terraform planets for other species.
I would also make the Terraforming tech available sooner.

My rational for this? Maybe I'm a Robo bigot, but early on it seemed strange that a large percentage of my empires population was Exobots. I could imagine the imaginary citizens of my empire complaining, "Hey, this planet is overcrowded, but we've got these other planets that could be made suitable for us to live on but we can't because they have Exobots living on them". I see Exobots purely as helpers for my species not there to supplant them.
You have a planet that you can't survive on so you create machines specially tailored to survive there and get it ready for a real colony.
Just my $0.02


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