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 Post subject: Ultimate Strategies
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:09 pm 
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Space Floater

Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:02 am
Posts: 28
Referring the current version 0.4.6 id like to start some tread which deals with strategy in general. On the one hand side to exchange some ideas of it for the player but on the other hand side also and mainly to give some ideas to strengthen the AI strategy.

Of course i saw the 'personal strategy guide'. We need some more and different ways. Including that thread i did not see someone to use mainly the deception. More than that i read people tell they would not use it. This was also my first way to try winning a game similar to the 'my personal strategy guide'-thread; meanwhile i always tried to skip mass driver 2-4, laser 2-4 and plasma cannon 2-4 in order to save some points in research. With some Species that has a minimum reserch level this worked quite well.

But id like to offer something completely different, what in my opinion is the end of any current strategy. It made me win any game against the AI also from the most awful starting posions:

Research-steps
1A) Algorythmic Elegance and Planetary Cloud Cover
1B) As soon as Algorithmic Elegance is researched set Nacent Artificial Intelligence to top.
1C) Same way with Planetary Ecology and Subterranean Habitation. Wait until Planetary Cloud Cover is researched.
1D) Meanwhile you build Outpost-Ships, Troop-Ships or Colony-Ships and colonize as you can whats easily to get. All points you can set on research you put only there. This will about stay the main way.
2A) Choose Planetary Ash Clouds and meanwhile research everything that makes you able to build these kind of ships:
2B1) Oupost Scout: 3x Basic Armor Plating; Active Radar; Outpost Module in a Robotic Hull; Colonize what you can get even close to the enemys stars, this doesnt matter
2B2) Invader: 4x Ground Troop Pod; 1x Laser Weapon. Strike where the AI does not watch out; they will not at all win it back.
2C) Begin and proceed to research Self-Defense/Mines
2D) At the same time you strive for Adaptive Automation with gives you sufficient production.
3A) You resarch all which give you more Groth and more Research to an ultimate research.
3B1) You reach Contra Gravitational Maintance, Planetary Dimensional Cloak.
3B2) Your new Invader-Ship-Design changes to: 7x Ground Troop Pod; 1xDeath Ray in a Self-Gravitating-Hull; The AI at that stage will have very simple Robotic Hull Ships and cant defend.
4) Everything else will come from alone.

You'll be unable to loose any game with a species that has some research ability. It would be Intersting to see an AI using such or similar macro versus other AI.

hf!


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 Post subject: Re: Ultimate Strategies
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:20 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:45 pm
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Interesting. I assume you're normally playing on fairly densely packed galaxies?

I've played the "hide" strategy a few times, but I've never put the planetary stealth up that high, but I prefer sparser/larger galaxies so the AI isn't a threat in the very early game.

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Mat Bowles

Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.


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 Post subject: Re: Ultimate Strategies
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:24 pm 
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Pupating Mass

Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:32 am
Posts: 97
Location: Great White North Eh
Instead of adding weapons to your troop ships (which are destined to be destroyed no matter what), why not build some fighters to do the planetary attacks and that can survive to be reused, saving production points in the long run?

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 Post subject: Re: Ultimate Strategies
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:05 pm 
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Space Floater

Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:02 am
Posts: 28
Quote:
"Interesting. I assume you're normally playing on fairly densely packed galaxies?"

exactly the opposite. i normally use planet desity=low. packed galaxies also occur with large maps with low planet desity at the unmodified version. really, if i play a large map that way i dont count it as challeging.

Quote:
Instead of adding weapons to your troop ships (which are destined to be destroyed no matter what)

what to destroy with it? planetary shields (otherwise you cant invade with it), and also some senrtys meanwhile f.e.

Quote:
why not build some fighters to do the planetary attacks and that can survive to be reused, saving production points in the long run?

yes i save producton points because i dont build ships which would be crap in some further moves. before those troop ships ar old, ive already used them


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 Post subject: Re: Ultimate Strategies
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:22 pm 
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Psionic Snowflake

Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:15 pm
Posts: 498
I believe Mat meant densely-packed in terms of the number of players. My setups are usually fairly spread out, I play 150 systems, four AIs. That means about 30 systems per player. I like to have some time for exploration, colonization, development, etc. before the fireworks begin. Usually there won't be serious trouble with the neighbors before turn 60 or so. Depends on the exact map, of course.

Some comments:

I would not weaponize troop ships.

Mass Driver 2-4 are pretty cheap to research. The good thing is that you can build ships with Mass Driver, and if early trouble arises quickly research upgrades. You didn't used to be able to do that. If you built a MD1 ship, you were stuck with for its lifetime.

My strategy can differ depending on the species I play. A research-oriented one I might hold off the upgrades if it looks like I won't need early ships. However, I usually do go down the Plasma path. For a poor research species, I might be building Plasma Cannon ships for a lot of the game. I've had Egassem games where I didn't pick up research species where I just churned out Robotic Hull, Diamond Plate, Plasma Cannon ships by the tons. I might never even research Death Ray, especially if the Experimenters aren't around.

I never bother with planetary stealth or really planetary defenses. Best defense is to kick them in the teeth if they try to enter the area. If you lose the occasional planet, oh well. It'll be "liberated" in turn. All those Research Points you save can go to other things like boosting production and improving weapons. Nice shiny explosive weapons. Blowing up the enemy . . . er, um, I digress.

You should very rarely be building colony ships. Only if there happens to be a great world too far off the lines or maybe one at a Maintenance ship system or The Warden where I want to drop a colony immediately after the threat is cleared do I use one.

Those combo ships don't make sense to me. I do sometimes build medium hull scouts, as they can slide past Maintenance ships. As an experiment when playing Etty, I created "robotic escorts" (no not futuristic call girls) that were Robotic hull ships with a Robotic shield, some armor, and a scanner. Their job was to cluster around warship fleets like pilot fish to boost their shields. It was interesting, but I haven't repeated that.

Don't mix the jobs of the ships. Troops ships should be inexpensive enough that you can use them freely. As you lose the ship when it drops you lose too much structure that cost "money". It's better to have them escorted by enough warships to do the job. I generally use two-step invasion, warships in first, troopers one turn behind. Sometimes in a long game planetary defenses can be high and the troop ship loss enough that I start using armored ones, but that's relatively unusual.

My starting research is Adaptive Automation, and slide Nascent AI up one slot in the queue. If I need early Growth, like I run into almost colonizable planets, then I can add some at the top. The initial research drive is to get the flat-rate research and production from NAI and AA then Exobots. If I don't need Exbots early (like play Cray) then concentrate on Growth.

I try not to build any warships that aren't Robotic hull in the early game, unless really necessary like a good native planet with defenses that the frigate can't handle.


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 Post subject: Re: Ultimate Strategies
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:54 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:45 pm
Posts: 3286
Yeah, I meant dense as in number of players, if there's 15 systems per AI you need to get defences up early, if 30+ you've time to develope more and strategy can be completely different (I have to force myself to play smaller/denser maps when trying new features or balancing because the difference can be exceptional).

For 'fighters', I normally end up with a couple small corvette style ships for internal patrols and picketing in the early to mid game, I want to kill any Krill swarms that turn up and they can be useful to sit on shielded planets (and, indeed, against ancient guardians now they're in the game but they're not in 0.4.6). Normally it's a Flux hull with one gun one armour, but sometimes it can be a Symbiotic hull with two guns and a stealth part.

I don't want to waste a precious slot on a troop ship for a gun, regardless of how cheap, I can see why people do it (and the AI used to before it got a lot smarter), but warships are warships, troop transports expendable, every slot used for not troops is potentially another hull built (and hulls, in general, are meant to be expensive—the Flux hull will be going up in cost very soon BTW).

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Mat Bowles

Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.


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 Post subject: Re: Ultimate Strategies
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:51 pm 
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Psionic Snowflake

Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:15 pm
Posts: 498
Some of my early ships get left behind in various areas for "krill duty".


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 Post subject: Re: Ultimate Strategies
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:11 pm 
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Space Floater

Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:02 am
Posts: 28
Game Over at move 100. What else to tell?


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 Post subject: Re: Ultimate Strategies
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:21 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:45 pm
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Nah, game clearly won, but you haven't finished exploring, if you can't see the whole map you can't even pretend to claim victory ;-)

More seriously, I think some sort of diplomacy would be really good at this stage, if several of those AIs merged together there'd still be a challenge for you. No idea how to get started on that but, y'know, we can dream.

(I'm testing weird new features ATM, if I take a break from that I'll give the above settings a go at some point)

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Mat Bowles

Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.


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 Post subject: Re: Ultimate Strategies
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:20 pm 
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Space Squid

Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:22 am
Posts: 53
MatGB wrote:
Nah, game clearly won, but you haven't finished exploring, if you can't see the whole map you can't even pretend to claim victory ;-)

More seriously, I think some sort of diplomacy would be really good at this stage, if several of those AIs merged together there'd still be a challenge for you. No idea how to get started on that but, y'know, we can dream.

(I'm testing weird new features ATM, if I take a break from that I'll give the above settings a go at some point)


The easy way out: Set a trigger for when the AIs all combine into a single faction. Then have a not-so-accessible button that allows a human player to trigger this if he wants a bigger challenge earlier.


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