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 Post subject: Supply problem
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:18 am 
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Dyson Forest
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Maybe this is a dumb question, but I don't know where to find the answer so...

This is FreeOrion_2017-10-08.d68433e_Test_Win32_Setup
There are no warships at Norris.
I am the Magenta color.
Why can I not draw supply through Fairchild?
Not sure if it is relevant but the race on Fairchild is Kobuntura.

Attachment:
supply.jpg
supply.jpg [ 366.79 KiB | Viewed 179 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: Supply problem
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:02 am 
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Juggernaut

Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:15 pm
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Could be something armed in the system (another empires vessel or monster) with a higher stealth then you can see.


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 Post subject: Re: Supply problem
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:17 am 
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Graphics
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The bright blue empire is supplying this system, cutting you off from supply (see colour of outer ring).

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 Post subject: Re: Supply problem
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:51 am 
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Dyson Forest
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The Silent One wrote:
The bright blue empire is supplying this system, cutting you off from supply (see colour of outer ring).


OK, but Why?


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 Post subject: Re: Supply problem
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:08 am 
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Huge planet = -2 supply, Kobuntura = +1 supply, so you'd need to have Orbital Construction plus at least one or Galactic Infrastructure or Gravitic Architecture to have at least 1 supply coming from that system.

Enemy supply can't propagate into a system that has at least one supply, but can override a system that has 0 or below supply, system supply is the best individual planet in the system.

You can block enemy supply propagation with warships, but you need to have more supply than them at a point to supply that system, or have positive supply coming from that system.

(and yes, this needs to be documented better, it's still relatively new and it got tweaked a lot during playtest)

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 Post subject: Re: Supply problem
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:21 pm 
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Dyson Forest
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OK, I understand now. Thanks for the explanation.
It boils down to They have a stronger supply "Strength" there than I do.
The problem was fixed when I built a Space Elevator there.
However, I think this is a problem. From what I understand Supply is completely
non-military in nature. The presence of ANY warship will disrupt Supply.
I could understand the situation if it were an empty or non colonized system,
but that's MY system. I have an inhabited planet there with defenses.
Surely that should count for something. If only from a purely "Whose Supply
strength is stronger" perspective.
If I were to move unarmed ships through an enemy controlled system they would
be attacked. So why does unarmed Supply get a free pass?


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 Post subject: Re: Supply problem
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:46 pm 
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Programmer

Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:08 am
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The planet does not initiate combat (currently), if your ships are set to hide (passive) when they enter the system, there will not be any combat if there are no enemy ships set to control system (aggressive).
The option can be toggle for a fleet on the right side of the fleet window (light green eye = hide, orange fist = control system)


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 Post subject: Re: Supply problem
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:57 pm 
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Dyson Forest
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dbenage-cx wrote:
The planet does not initiate combat (currently), if your ships are set to hide (passive) when they enter the system, there will not be any combat if there are no enemy ships set to control system (aggressive).
The option can be toggle for a fleet on the right side of the fleet window (light green eye = hide, orange fist = control system)


That may be so, but it still doesn't feel right. Wouldn't an armed system also have the equivalent
of a Coast Guard to prevent this very type of thing from happening?


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 Post subject: Re: Supply problem
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:29 pm 
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Psionic Snowflake

Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:15 pm
Posts: 492
EricF wrote:
dbenage-cx wrote:
The planet does not initiate combat (currently), if your ships are set to hide (passive) when they enter the system, there will not be any combat if there are no enemy ships set to control system (aggressive).
The option can be toggle for a fleet on the right side of the fleet window (light green eye = hide, orange fist = control system)


That may be so, but it still doesn't feel right. Wouldn't an armed system also have the equivalent
of a Coast Guard to prevent this very type of thing from happening?

No, you have to build comsats or something to "detect" (really to init combat) with hidden forces. I have in the past sent passive forces to a system that is building a colony that I want to steal as soon as it finishes building. I just flip the state when build is finished.


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 Post subject: Re: Supply problem
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:35 am 
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Release Manager, Design
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Location: Sol III
EricF wrote:
Wouldn't an armed system also have the equivalent
of a Coast Guard to prevent this very type of thing from happening?
Not quite. In FO, planetary defences are exactly that: planetary defences. Current fluff explanation depicts it as a network of orbital defence satellites, which means they are strictly planet bound, which means they can't engage anything that doesn't initiate combat. That's why planets just by themselves can't initiate combat.

Of course that doesn't really explain very well why planets can fully participate in combat once other armed forces in the system initiate it. That's a shortcoming of the current placeholder combat system. So in essence you're right: the way planetary defences work in combat right now isn't exactly consistent.


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 Post subject: Re: Supply problem
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:03 am 
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Dyson Forest
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OK, so the supply ships that make up the Supply Network are unarmed
in comparison to any real warship, but armed enough to deal with any
light system police cutters. I can buy that.
I suppose overthinking this issue too much would end up adding too
much extra micromanagement.


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 Post subject: Re: Supply problem
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:36 pm 
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EricF wrote:
I suppose overthinking this issue too much would end up adding too
much extra micromanagement.

Bingo.

I would like it if a planet on Defence focus would intitiate combat and also block supply regardless, but that's one of those wishlist features that's beyond my coding chops.

For what it's worth, when you do know how Supply works, it's currently too easy to make and maintain your connections while disrupting the AI, you can currently completely cutoff a lot of planets in an empire with a well placed space elevator on Logistics focus, then enemy shipbuilding is massively disrupted: I sometimes do this if I've got multiple borders and am invading elsewhere.

It's due a balance pass and rework, one or both of Galactic Infrastructure and Gravitic Architecture need changing in some way, but it's a lower priority for me and the AI team is busy as well and it'd need their input.

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 Post subject: Re: Supply problem
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:51 pm 
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Dyson Forest
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EricF wrote:
OK, so the supply ships that make up the Supply Network are unarmed in comparison to any real warship, but armed enough to deal with any light system police cutters. I can buy that.
I prefer to think that there is not such thing as a police cutter (i.e. only armed ships are the one you can see), that (enemy) supply lines does not pass close enough to planets to be shot down by the planetary defences (regardless of the comsat thingy to detect actual enemy ships, that has nothing to do with the shipless supply system of FO), and that (virtual) merchant ships that integrate the supply chain are able to disrupt/impede other enemy supply lines (depending on supply strength) thanks to the light/negligible armament they have. Thus I can live with the idea of my huge, heavy defended planet can't receive/send supplies to adjacent systems because that George bastard has a tiny planet three systems away.

MatGB wrote:
I would like it if a planet on Defence focus would [...] block supply regardless
I don't. Supply lines can pass through a planetary system yet keep far away from the planetary defence effective range. To block the supply you just need a tiny ship with one weapon.


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 Post subject: Re: Supply problem
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:42 pm 
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Dyson Forest
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I don't like situations where I can gain an advantage because I know and
understand the rules better than you. Not just good solid strategy. This supply
thing just seems too gimmicky for my tastes.
To understand my original problem, I had to have it explained to me.
Seemed to defy common sense. Though I will now concede that it does make
some sense to me now.


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 Post subject: Re: Supply problem
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:38 am 
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Release Manager, Design
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EricF wrote:
Seemed to defy common sense.
Which is why I'd prefer if a colony would overpower any enemy supply propagating into its system, regardless of the strength of its own supply meter (unless the enemy has colonies in the same system too of course). Simply because it's less confusing/more intuitive for players.


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