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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:35 am 
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Space Dragon

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Hi,

the PR for round 3 has been merges https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/pull/1928 and will be in the upcoming test builds (?next monday?).

Main changes
  1. The stockpile limit now limits INPUT as well as OUTPUT (extraction). The transfer ratio is gone. So you can put some PP into the stockpile without wasting PP.
  2. Stockpile bonus from species is always applied, only depends on the species trait (Laenfa GOOD, SuperTesters and Sly GREAT, everybody else AVERAGE)
  3. Stockpile bonus from technology gets gated by FOCUS. Unlock STOCKPILE_FOCUS by researching GENERIC_SUPPLIES.
  4. New fast-fieldable hull, the Flux bubble helps with stealthed expansion


Please report your feedback:
  1. is the input limit useful. is this better than the transfer ratio. other alternatives?
  2. UI/usage issues (also see UI Separators discussion)
  3. are we on the right track with the Sly


My experience:
  1. i want a quantitative waste indicator in the main screen (with the ratio you had one indirectly)
  2. we need to do something about filling the stockpile up easily. E.g. change the UI to do this or use a stockpile limit (of about 5 times the limit) and remove the input limits)

Please report your findings in this thread. Discussion of implementation ideas etc please in the Refining the Imperial Stockpile thread.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:03 pm 
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Ophiuchus wrote:
i want a quantitative waste indicator in the main screen (with the ratio you had one indirectly)
Can you make a mockup illustrating what you want?
Quote:
we need to do something about filling the stockpile up easily. E.g. change the UI to do this or use a stockpile limit (of about 5 times the limit) and remove the input limits)
Not clear what this means.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:06 pm 
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Ophiuchus wrote:
...and will be in the upcoming test builds (?next monday?).
New test builds would have been due yesterday, but I didn't get around to it. Intend to do that today evening.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:53 pm 
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Vezzra wrote:
Ophiuchus wrote:
...and will be in the upcoming test builds (?next monday?).
New test builds would have been due yesterday, but I didn't get around to it. Intend to do that today evening.

Maximum awesome!!!!! :D

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:43 am 
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The -30 stealth while in movement makes the Flux Bubble Hull not useful for (early) stealth colonisation (or just for anything stealth relaled). If it had two inner slots it would be good for mid/late stealthy colonisation, but still a problem to pass through enemies (monsters or empires) to colonise behind lines, which renders the stealth colonisation impossible or very hard in some situations.

I like the Sly. The lack of supply range makes them completely dependant on the IS. It even makes pointless to get supply bonus techs unless you get another race. I need to play more with them for a proper judgement of them and the IS system (not sure to understand it yet).

Edit: the IS focus seems pointless, since you get less increase in the limit than what you can get by focusing on production? And even if the increase was greater (i.e. the focus would allow you to draw more PPs from the IS than PPs you woud produce localy) you need those PPs stored in the IS first, which is hard with the current implementation. What about allowing half PP production for colonies with supply focus?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:35 am 
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Space Dragon

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Oberlus wrote:
The -30 stealth while in movement makes the Flux Bubble Hull not useful for (early) stealth colonisation (or just for anything stealth relaled). If it had two inner slots it would be good for mid/late stealthy colonisation, but still a problem to pass through enemies (monsters or empires) to colonise behind lines, which renders the stealth colonisation impossible or very hard in some situations

Yes, sneaking past monsters or other stationaries doesnt work well.
It works ok if the enemy doesnt block all the lanes - you can wait and sneak through with the right timing. Probably that wont work though against player empires(?)

When playing against AI what I found more pressing is to refill ships if you are in enemy territory. The Sly planet supply (-1 without tech) is so low it doesnt interrupt enemy supply lines, so you cant refill or upgrade, which you need if you want to expand further.
Probably we should have some kind of: a hidden ship can get resupplied by a planet in the same system.
Hidden means: not visible to any enemy with active (armed?) vessel in that system.
Maybe also: a non-interrupted ship can be resupplied by a planet in the same system. Non-interrupted means: no active armed enemy vessel in that system

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:32 am 
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Oberlus wrote:
the IS focus seems pointless, since you get less increase in the limit than what you can get by focusing on production?
The idea is (possibly?) that you have some planets that focus on stockpiling, and others that focus on PP generation. The meter levels need to be balanced, but with both, you can generate PP and send it to the stockpile to be used elsewhere.
Ophiuchus wrote:
Probably we should have some kind of: a hidden ship can get resupplied by a planet in the same system.
Easier refueling could be a Sly racial trait. Or you could put Ramscoops in your ship designs. Something for upgrading out of supply seems necessary, though.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:57 pm 
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Geoff the Medio wrote:
Ophiuchus wrote:
Probably we should have some kind of: a hidden ship can get resupplied by a planet in the same system.
Easier refueling could be a Sly racial trait. Or you could put Ramscoops in your ship designs. Something for upgrading out of supply seems necessary, though.

Are these some fast-fix suggestions or do you have objections against ships being able refilled in local planets?

I have the feeling that it should be generally possible to refill in a system where is one of your planets if nobody interrupts this.
In my mind, supply lines can interrupt other supply lines.
But supply lines cant interrupt any of your ships, so your ships should be able to get a refill from the planet.
So this should not be a Sly thing.

edit: general out-of-supply refilling is an orthogonal topic and could be a Sly thing

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:25 pm 
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Ophiuchus wrote:
Are these some fast-fix suggestions or do you have objections against ships being able refilled in local planets?

But supply lines cant interrupt any of your ships, so your ships should be able to get a refill from the planet.
I think it is intentional that only in supply ships can resupply. In part, it means you can just put down a colony anywhere any instantly resupply a fleet. You have to have a colony on a suitable planet that can project some supply lanes.

Whether this is a realistic / meaningful limitation, I'm not sure.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:26 pm 
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Geoff the Medio wrote:
Ophiuchus wrote:
Are these some fast-fix suggestions or do you have objections against ships being able refilled in local planets?

But supply lines cant interrupt any of your ships, so your ships should be able to get a refill from the planet.
I think it is intentional that only in supply ships can resupply. In part, it means you can just put down a colony anywhere any instantly resupply a fleet. You have to have a colony on a suitable planet that can project some supply lanes.

Whether this is a realistic / meaningful limitation, I'm not sure.

@game-wise
i also dont know if this limitation does make sense
It certainly is most unconvenient right now.

@realistic
The planet is generally able to resupply the fleet (if there is no foreign supply).

So not being able to resupply there makes only sense if usually the ships cant go to the planet, and supply cant reach the ships in the orbit because of supply pressure (?)
In that case the basic hull certainly can start from a planet, as they dont need a orbital drydock to be build.
Also one should not be able to build any orbital tech and ships as long as you dont have supply pressure.

I suggest either of those:
* drop the local restriction generally (easy to script i think)
* drop the local restriction for certain hulls ("being able to land/enter atmosphere") (almost as easy to script i think)
* drop the local restriction for planet types (no atmosphere: gas giants, asteroids) (almost as easy to script i think)
* globally hidden supply lines (big discussion)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:35 pm 
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"realism" is irrelevant. Maybe having supply 0 means the planet doesn't have any capability of getting supplies into orbit to resupply a ship, and the ship can't enter atmosphere. Or maybe it doesn't. This doesn't depend on the concept of "supply pressure".


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:32 pm 
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Re. the need of a stealth hull for early stealth expasion:

Ophiuchus wrote:
Yes, sneaking past monsters or other stationaries doesnt work well.
Just does not work. If you play cluster galaxy type chances are that you'll be bounded to your cluster until you kill that monster in the entry/exit choke point, so you are forced to build army to expand. That can also happen in irregular (and random, obviously). I'd like to be able to play pure stealthed/unarmed expansion strategy early game, which is not always possible currently.
Edit: plus it is not efficient for the Sly. They get really high production from the start, what makes building armies pretty easy and more rewarding than researching the techs you need for the stealth strategy.

Quote:
It works ok if the enemy doesnt block all the lanes - you can wait and sneak through with the right timing.
You can do that with regular hulls, no need for the flux bubble hull.
Seriously, I don't see the point of an unarmed stealth hull that is only stealthed when not moving. It's not filling an empty niche, it's just bizarre.

So I still would like to have a 2x inner slot hull with 20 stealth base stealth. Enough for stealth colonisation/exploration until empires get active radar, and then you can add one stealth ship part to keep your stealthy expansion viable. Asteroid could be the line for this hull, but I don't care.


Last edited by Oberlus on Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:41 pm 
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Geoff the Medio wrote:
Easier refueling could be a Sly racial trait. Or you could put Ramscoops in your ship designs. Something for upgrading out of supply seems necessary, though.
I like the idea of the living organic hulls being able to refill fuel faster than currently (0.5/turn), explained by them eating space stuff (they are like space monsters).

Regarding the resupply of the Sly ships in systems with Sly planets that have no supply in the system, and not caring about realism, what about allowing stealthy ships to resupply from (allied) stealthy planets regardless of the supply value?
I mean, an undetected ship in a system with an undetected planet can resupply/upgrade regardless of the supply meter (or whatever).

In my few Sly games, when monsters/empires where not blocking my ships, I could get rather far away by hoping from colonised GG to colonised GG, except if the GG was in a system with enemy planets.

Another way could be to change Sly supply from bad (+0) to good (+2)? This would give +1 supply to the colonised GGs and maybe solve the problem? IDK.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:23 pm 
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Oberlus wrote:
Ophiuchus wrote:
Yes, sneaking past monsters or other stationaries doesnt work well.
Just does not work. If you play cluster galaxy type chances are that you'll be bounded to your cluster until you kill that monster in the entry/exit choke point, so you are forced to build army to expand.
In the battle detection branch, I've extended good stealth to also apply to ships. Perhaps that would help, as stealthy species can bypass most monsters.
Quote:
Edit: plus it is not efficient for the Sly. They get really high production from the start, what makes building armies pretty easy and more rewarding than researching the techs you need for the stealth strategy.
They actually had bad industry and pilots, but perhaps they need to be made even worse?
Quote:
So I still would like to have a 2x inner slot hull with 20 stealth base stealth. Enough for stealth colonisation/exploration until empires get active radar, and then you can add one stealth ship part to keep your stealthy expansion viable. Asteroid could be the line for this hull, but I don't care.
Make a pull request?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:11 am 
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Geoff the Medio wrote:
In the battle detection branch, I've extended good stealth to also apply to ships. Perhaps that would help, as stealthy species can bypass most monsters.
Sure it will do. Problem then may be they get too stealthy, +40 is a lot. I suggest using only half the planetary bonus or adding a new species trait where great is +20 and good is +10.

Quote:
They [Sly] actually had bad industry and pilots, but perhaps they need to be made even worse?
I need to play more. But right now my feeling is that they get huge populations by using only GGs. This coupled with the incredibly short supply lines of the Sly and the reasonable limitations of the IS (or the fact that I'm still not using the supply focus) forces me to focus on research on many of the isolated colonies. With so huge populations, if you exploit the growth techs, you get overwhelming amounts of RP and go cocky with all good tech lines. So your planets stay undetected and full of mines that wreak havoc on the enemies that colonised the same system than you, your colonisers also stay invisible, and you can go for several main tech lines at once. So it works very well, the stealthy strategy for the Sly, even with poor use of the IS, by just getting very ahead on research and then start pumping stealthed scattered asteroid carriers with multispectral shields and death rays when the others are still on laser and plasma shields.

So answering your question, I think a VERY_BAD_POPULATION trait for Sly is the way to go, to make their GGs not so growth-tech exploitable (I'm assuming that a 50% population modifier will give you 2/3 of what I'm seeing with the current 75% modifier, and that the modifier also affects the increases you get from growth techs).


For better use of the IS I was forced to do some extra micromanaging with the production queue (as Ophiucus comented). That suggestion about the two bars in the production queue is still a very good idea.


Quote:
Quote:
So I still would like to have a 2x inner slot hull with 20 stealth base stealth [...]
Make a pull request?
For this also I still need to play more. Going camouflaged asteroid (the one with 4 inner slots) is also possible to colonise past enemy lines, and it's not hard to get it (it's maybe harder to get the detection and stealth techs, so you can parallelise).
Only problem I saw is that enemy armed forces will prevent you from colonising GGs in that system. May this be considered a bug or is it intended?


Finally, I got a problem: can't colonise GGs that have been outposted by the enemies. If I conquer the outpost (which is not very stealthy, I now) it's an outpost in the middle of nowhere, so I can't build a colony building in there, and I have no way to destroy the outpost, right?.
Could it be possible that colony ships where able to colonise allied outposts? That would fix the problem.


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