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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:43 pm 
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Should Sly also get some additional complications that them not work well in an empire with other species? Perhaps Xenophobic like Trith?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:24 am 
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That feels too much like Trith (self-sustaining xenofobic, edit: plus both are stealthy, Sly more). The only problem I see with them is the huge population they get from colonising GGs, but that seems solved with considering GGs as size 4. The fact that Sly can only use GGs until hostile (longer than Trith, that can use poor planets) and that it is considered as adequate (-12 with respect to large good) seems to pay off for the advantageous 4 average planet size they get (while normal species will get 3). But I haven't played enough with that build (just started a game until turn 30).


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:52 am 
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Geoff the Medio wrote:
Should Sly also get some additional complications that them not work well in an empire with other species? Perhaps Xenophobic like Trith?

One idea in my original branch was making the gas giants where the sly live less useful for other planets in the system (just a plus five instead of the ten). (Fluff: Polution caused by excessive gas giant generation would kill the sly).
So thats a decision instead of a no-brainer if you should colonize using the Sly or not.

Also I dont want them to be xenophobic. Sly are a peace-loving and open-minded species.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:12 pm 
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LGM-Doyle wrote:
Spatial Flux Bubble Hull

The Spatial Flux Bubble Hull with either the outpost or colony module is cheaper, faster, has more fuel, and is a full detection level stealthier, than its standard counter part. Its stealth also automatically upgrades during the game. Its only drawback compared with the basic colony ship is that it has lower structure and can't power past any monsters.

Actually it can sneak past a lot of them. Exactly like with the flux drive.

Quote:
All empires should replace their basic outpost/colony ships with these new hulls.

If they spend the RP (same as robotic hull) researching it, why not?

Quote:
The Spatial Flux Bubble Hull is the only hull with automatic stealth upgrades.

No. Its the exactly the same as spatial flux hull. (And that had those at least half a year)

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In order to be balanced, this hull should require a similar amount of research to these comparable hulls.

Exactly not this. The meaning of the hull is to be helpful for distributed empires to sneak your colonies into enemy supply networks) The hidden organic and asteroid line take too long to the field to be helpful. If this hull is overpowered the simplest would be to make it more PP-expensive or need a special shipyard, reduce detection .. whatever.

Also note that the bubble name makes some sense. They are eeeeeeeasily destroyed - you need to be careful about them.

But if you have alternatives how to fill the gap, i am all ears. I just took the flux hull and revamped it.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:22 pm 
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@LGM-Doyle First thanks for playing and providing feedback :)

LGM-Doyle wrote:
I still agree with Vezzra, the stockpile mechanic works as a way to bypass the supply mechanic.

Well, for the Sly (and maybe Laenfa), yes of course. IMHO thats the main purpose. Else we should have done the hidden supply networks.

My lackmus test: It should not be bypassing the supply mechanic in a meaningful way for non-stockpiling species.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:27 pm 
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LGM-Doyle wrote:
Sly Species

The strategy that I employed with the Sly was to grab gas giants, build a gas giant generator and a space elevator in each system. This overcomes their supply impediment and denies areas to other empires, while generating PP to build more colonies and eventually doom stacks.

How about no space elevators on gas giants?

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The Sly in their current form are overpowered. Even the AI dominates, when it starts as the Sly.

I think everybody agrees. I think the main problem is the gas giant planet size.
For each tech boost level you get 6 max population extra. This should either be 3 or 4. Then the starting population can be adjusted to fitting levels.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:28 pm 
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Geoff the Medio wrote:
For the next iteration, I'm inclined to remove the stockpile input limit, keep the extraction limit as it works now, and make everything on the production queue default to stockpile enabled. That way there's no micromangement to use the stockpile for something on the queue, no micromangement to add to the stockpile, and extracting more than a trivial amount still requires dedicating some planets to stockpiling.

+1

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:40 pm 
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Ophiuchus wrote:
How about no space elevators on gas giants?
I wouldn't like that. For me, space elevators make perfect sense in a GG, the same you can build a radar or any other building. If it is a problem that it virtually negates the Sly supply lack for GGs, you can make it less effective (+2 for GGs instead of +4).
In any case, consider that what LGM-Doyle did was possible because of his huge population unbalance. Playing Sly with the adjustments we have been talking about I couldn't devote so much PPs to build elevators until late game, when there was no more free GGs to colonise on the entire galaxy.


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I think the main problem is the gas giant planet size.
For each tech boost level you get 6 max population extra. This should either be 3 or 4. Then the starting population can be adjusted to fitting levels.
I've been playing with that change, size 4 for GGs, editing the line in Planet.cpp that Geoff pointed out. It works prfectly. The only side effect I see is that if you order by planet size in the objects windows you don't get the GGs at the start. But otherwise, it solves all population problems with Sly.
My first game was with the modifications of disabling subterranean hab. for GGs, making self-sustaining an early priority effect (to be affected by bad population trait) and disabling the Orbital Generation bonus for inhabitated GGs. It was the hardest game ever, Sly underpowered. Now I'm gonna play with only the size=4 change (all the rest as it was before Sly) and see if that is balanced enough (considering that they can't colonise anything but GGs until "unlocking" hostile env.). Maybe then you should make GGs good for Sly instead of adequate.



Side note: if you colonise a non-GG with Sly and build terraforming it does work and changes the environment to the "next" one, but it seems just to cycle the wheel, with no real objective. Should I post an issue for this (to remove terraforming on GGs is the most reasonable, I guess)?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:49 am 
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If further changes are needed for pop after gas giant size changes, think Geoff had the right idea for xenophobic (though instead make a new trait with some malus).
Sly sound like they warrant new traits, if not a new metabolism.

Is the spatial bubble hull centric to the IS species starting out? Might unlock just for those species at startup.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:17 am 
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Oberlus wrote:
Ophiuchus wrote:
How about no space elevators on gas giants?
I wouldn't like that. For me, space elevators make perfect sense in a GG, the same you can build a radar or any other building. If it is a problem that it virtually negates the Sly supply lack for GGs, you can make it less effective (+2 for GGs instead of +4).
Could give Sly an much bigger supply penalty, so that even with a space elevator, their supply meter is effectively zero. Should probably also make them not allowed to produce the elevator, to avoid players producing useless buildings.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:40 am 
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dbenage-cx wrote:
If further changes are needed for pop after gas giant size changes, think Geoff had the right idea for xenophobic (though instead make a new trait with some malus).
Sly sound like they warrant new traits, if not a new metabolism.

+1 for new metabolism :)

dbenage-cx wrote:
Is the spatial bubble hull centric to the IS species starting out? Might unlock just for those species at startup.

You need it pretty soon if you play distributed empire. (The starting unlock was not intended, slipped in from testing.). So I think its ok if it costs a little RP.
I dont like special unlocks for tech, so Id prefer balancing it so not all empires would want to research it. Asteroid camouflage and organic line should both be better midterm investments if you want "strong" stealth.
The big advantage of the bubble should be that it can be available around turn 20.

We can make it more expensive and more sturdy than the basic line (fluff: omnidirectional spherical shape provides great primary structure and exposes no weak points, also should make deflection more effective).

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:43 am 
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Oberlus wrote:
Side note: if you colonise a non-GG with Sly and build terraforming it does work and changes the environment to the "next" one, but it seems just to cycle the wheel, with no real objective.

Not sure how to fix this. Is it the same for exobots?

Oberlus wrote:
Should I post an issue for this (to remove terraforming on GGs is the most reasonable, I guess)?

We shouldnt be able to terraform gas giants. So it should be excluded from the terraforming location.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:29 am 
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Ophiuchus wrote:
Not sure how to fix this. Is it the same for exobots?
Never tried, because I only build them in asteroids (and whenever I conquer an exobot planet I build concentration camps right away). I'll do.

Ophiuchus wrote:
Oberlus wrote:
Should I post an issue for this (to remove terraforming on GGs is the most reasonable, I guess)?

We shouldnt be able to terraform gas giants. So it should be excluded from the terraforming location.
Sorry, I meant to remove terraforming for Sly (on non-GGs).


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:43 am 
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Oberlus wrote:
Ophiuchus wrote:
Not sure how to fix this. Is it the same for exobots?
Never tried, because I only build them in asteroids (and whenever I conquer an exobot planet I build concentration camps right away). I'll do.
Looks like it is just missing some conditions in EnqueueLocation from Location (asteroids/gasgiants, uninhabitable/good, exobots+adequate).


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:24 am 
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Oberlus wrote:
Also if planet size of GGs are treated as 4 (still testing it, ...).


I've moved the AI info about planet sizes to a more standard location for such content dependencies, so when you experiment with GGs as size 4 please be sure to edit that so the AI will be working with the right info.

Also, I put up a PR for the AI handling the Sly better, please give it a whirl.

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