Notes on rev 5507

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yandonman
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Notes on rev 5507

#1 Post by yandonman »

  • Kraken nests much more prevalent?
  • Love the new pedia links
  • Like the Star type labels (a tad drab tho)
  • Sensor ghosts (the bad kind) still there
  • AI not invading me (but invaded natives)
  • AI strongly favors Static-multicellular ships
  • Fractal and Quantums need to be at different research levels
  • Armor less important now??
  • Fleet Window reset on combining fleets annoying
  • Endo-symbiotic 5 build turn and Endomorphic is 6? (seems wrong?)
  • One-click colonize seems better (one click outposts doesn't work on gas giants)
  • Right-click menu (on ships and planets) too translucent; makes it difficult to read the menu items
  • Invade button needs to deselect invading troop ships (so to not need to manually deselect to invade other worlds in system)
  • Post turn 100 game starts to get laggy between turns
  • AI fleets need to group
  • Love the new "auto" save folder and the rotating 10 save files!!
  • Etty able to stealth to un-invadable planets?
  • Getting lots of:

    Code: Select all

    2012-12-04 22:35:56,393 ERROR Client : Universe::JumpDistance passed invalid system id(s): 74 & -1
    2012-12-04 22:35:56,393 ERROR Client : JumpsBetweenObjects caught exception when calling JumpDistance
    
    Getting lots of:

    Code: Select all

    2012-12-04 22:36:30,196 ERROR Client : HumanClientFSM : A TurnProgress event was passed to the HumanClientFSM.  This event is illegal in the FSM's current state.  It is being ignored.
    
    Getting a spattering of:

    Code: Select all

    2012-12-04 22:36:30,337 ERROR Client : HumanClientFSM : A TurnPartialUpdate event was passed to the HumanClientFSM.  This event is illegal in the FSM's current state.  It is being ignored.
    2012-12-04 22:36:32,525 ERROR Client : HumanClientFSM : A TurnUpdate event was passed to the HumanClientFSM.  This event is illegal in the FSM's current state.  It is being ignored.
    
  • Species trait 'pedia entries should include species list (pragmatically)
  • Species hover should include icons for their traits
  • Hover over 'stealthed' object should give stealth strength (maybe up to +20 of current detection stregth, then say "<detection stregh+20>+" to say it's so high you can't even tell)
  • "Detection Range" seems odd; isn't it Detection strength?
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eleazar
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Re: Notes on rev 5507

#2 Post by eleazar »

yandonman wrote:[*]Kraken nests much more prevalent?
I didn't alter Kraken. A few less-dangerous monsters should be a little more prevalent.
yandonman wrote:Invade button needs to deselect invading troop ships (so to not need to manually deselect to invade other worlds in system)
I agree. Colony ships too, for when you colonize more than one planet in a system in a turn.
yandonman wrote:Etty able to stealth to un-invadable planets?

Species trait 'pedia entries should include species list (pragmatically)
??? Can you explain what you mean?
yandonman wrote:Right-click menu (on ships and planets) too translucent; makes it difficult to read the menu items
Agree. Those shouldn't' be translucent at all. Text probably over text is a worst case scenario for transparent backgrounds.
yandonman wrote:Species hover should include icons for their traits
Probably. But I don't think it is currently possible to put arbitrary graphics into the string table.
yandonman wrote:Hover over 'stealthed' object should give stealth strength (maybe up to +20 of current detection stregth, then say "<detection stregh+20>+" to say it's so high you can't even tell)
I think it is only the messed-up implementation of stealth (you can see me but you can't touch me!) that makes idea seem viable.
yandonman wrote:"Detection Range" seems odd; isn't it Detection strength?[/list]
The game has both stats. D. Strength is an empire-wide variable. Everything else is D. Range.

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Dilvish
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Re: Notes on rev 5507

#3 Post by Dilvish »

yandonman wrote:
  • AI not invading me (but invaded natives)
I don't recall making any inherent distinction between your planets and native planets. Yours, however, probably have more defenses, both on-planet and possibly with in-system defensive fleets, which makes it easier for an AI to find the resources to invade a native planet; in addition to the implicit prioritization what comes from that, I think I did add some explicit prioritization of invading undefended planets.
  • AI strongly favors Static-multicellular ships
Yes, that's true for now. I'll be trying to work in asteroid ships soon, and at some later time a more flexible way of planning shipbuilding.
  • Fleet Window reset on combining fleets annoying
It does a lot to try to maintain whatever status still makes sense after a change. What I can recall is sometimes wishing that the destination fleet would stay visible rather than having the scrollbar reset -- is that what you're talking about?
  • AI fleets need to group
They do group up when on the same mission, but not necessarily if waiting for a mission. or has that looked like it stopped working to you? Also, at the end of a mission the ships in a fleet generally split up to make it simpler for assigning them piecemeal to the next mission (though I have plans to make my fleet assignment process a little more complex so it will pull in portions of fleets rather than entire fleets, in which case I can leave them grouped up more at the end of missions). Are you seeing any situation where this is causing harm to the AI, or is it the nuisance factor to yourself not getting as much benefit from examining the AI fleet summary info?
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yandonman
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Re: Notes on rev 5507

#4 Post by yandonman »

eleazar wrote:
yandonman wrote: Etty able to stealth to un-invadable planets?
??? Can you explain what you mean?
I've reached a point (turn 237, playing Trith) in the game I'm play-testing with that I can not invade Etty species planets. The empire in question has max stealth tech researched (Phasing Cloak: +80 stealth... tho the planets read Void Metamorphosis, which states +700 stealth... ???), and I have max scanning tech researched (Omni-scanner: +90 detection strength). Etty has the species trait Good Stealth: +15 stealth. I can invade other other species within that empire ('bots and natives), but not the Etty controlled planets.

So I'm assuming ('cause the UI isn't helping me validate this theory) that the Etty planets have a total of 95 stealth (research + species bonus), and I have a detection strength of 90.

Up to hear, I'm ok, so long as there's a way around this. And that's turning into the $100 question.

As much as I can tell, SetDetection means set detection range - which means sensor parts increase detection range, but not strength. That being said, I've tried Sensors - doesn't work.

I've tried adding a Solar ship (it has a special to reduce stealth of objects within 0 distance) to my fleet - doesn't work.
I've tried adding a Lighthouse (I captured an outpost in the same system, built Lighthouse there) - doesn't work.

I can attack the planet, and I see this because I knock out the shields and weapons on the planet.

So, what's the answer here - I need to add Distortion Modulator to my troop ships?

Here's the pic from the game:
StealthIssue_Invade.jpg
StealthIssue_Invade.jpg (134.99 KiB) Viewed 1798 times
eleazar wrote:
yandonman wrote: Species trait 'pedia entries should include species list (pragmatically)
??? Can you explain what you mean?
That should have been "programatically". Basically, I think it would be nice to have a "Species with this trait", followed by a list of species with that trait, section of the 'pedia entry with any species trait. Just a nice to have. The programatic part is such that if someone adds a new species with that trait, the 'pedia entry doesn't have to be updated as well; it'll just automatically pick it up.



Dilvish wrote:What I can recall is sometimes wishing that the destination fleet would stay visible rather than having the scrollbar reset -- is that what you're talking about?
Bingo - right on the money.


Dilvish wrote:Are you seeing any situation where this is causing harm to the AI, or is it the nuisance factor to yourself not getting as much benefit from examining the AI fleet summary info?
No harm to the AI - it's the second part of your question that nailed it. As a human, it's a benefit to see the fleet summary info. Having a hundred single ship fleets negates that benefit.


Dilvish wrote:I don't recall making any inherent distinction between your planets and native planets. Yours, however, probably have more defenses, both on-planet and possibly with in-system defensive fleets, which makes it easier for an AI to find the resources to invade a native planet; in addition to the implicit prioritization what comes from that, I think I did add some explicit prioritization of invading undefended planets.
I do tend to protect my choke points - however, I've seen the AI defend the counter-choke point with 100+ ships vs my 10 ships (with comparable ship strengths). The AI, in this build, does not exploit my weakness in this situation. (makes me wonder if the AI is calculating if there is just some defense or if it's weighing the relative offence/defense strength of the guarding fleet).
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eleazar
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Re: Notes on rev 5507

#5 Post by eleazar »

yandonman wrote:So I'm assuming ('cause the UI isn't helping me validate this theory) that the Etty planets have a total of 95 stealth (research + species bonus), and I have a detection strength of 90.
Can't you expand the bottom section of the planet in the sidepanel and see the planet's stealth?

yandonman wrote:As much as I can tell, SetDetection means set detection range - which means sensor parts increase detection range, but not strength.
Exactly.
yandonman wrote:I've tried adding a Solar ship (it has a special to reduce stealth of objects within 0 distance) to my fleet - doesn't work.
I've tried adding a Lighthouse (I captured an outpost in the same system, built Lighthouse there) - doesn't work.
I don't know why that didn't work. I don't have nearly a complete grasp on the stealth-effects scripting.

There are more changes to stealth that need to be done, but i haven't had time to sit down and figure out how it all works.

However, revision 5519, give a big extra bonus to omni-scanners, which should counter any un-tamed stealth bonuses out there.
yandonman wrote:I can attack the planet, and I see this because I knock out the shields and weapons on the planet.
Yep, i don't like it, but that's how a "stealthy" planet currently works, you can see all the information on the planet, but it is invulnerable to invasions.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Notes on rev 5507

#6 Post by Geoff the Medio »

eleazar wrote:
yandonman wrote:So I'm assuming ('cause the UI isn't helping me validate this theory) that the Etty planets have a total of 95 stealth (research + species bonus), and I have a detection strength of 90.
Can't you expand the bottom section of the planet in the sidepanel and see the planet's stealth?
yandonman wrote:I can attack the planet, and I see this because I knock out the shields and weapons on the planet.
Yep, i don't like it, but that's how a "stealthy" planet currently works, you can see all the information on the planet, but it is invulnerable to invasions.
I'm not sure, but I would expect that if you can't invade a planet due to visibility, then you wouldn't be able to see its meters either, and would instead have the latest observed values displayed.

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eleazar
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Re: Notes on rev 5507

#7 Post by eleazar »

Geoff the Medio wrote:
eleazar wrote:
yandonman wrote:So I'm assuming ('cause the UI isn't helping me validate this theory) that the Etty planets have a total of 95 stealth (research + species bonus), and I have a detection strength of 90.
Can't you expand the bottom section of the planet in the sidepanel and see the planet's stealth?
yandonman wrote:I can attack the planet, and I see this because I knock out the shields and weapons on the planet.
Yep, i don't like it, but that's how a "stealthy" planet currently works, you can see all the information on the planet, but it is invulnerable to invasions.
I'm not sure, but I would expect that if you can't invade a planet due to visibility, then you wouldn't be able to see its meters either, and would instead have the latest observed values displayed.
No, here's how it works with a stealthed planet that you've never had the detection to see.

* From any distance, if the planet is in detection range, but the detector is not in the same system, the planet is utterly invisible (doesn't show up in the side panel.)

* Once the source of detection enters the system with the hidden planet, all info is revealed, but the planet has scanlines over it's image.

To test start a game with the following setting.
stealthed-planet.png
stealthed-planet.png (27.67 KiB) Viewed 1775 times
"Almach" (three jumps to the lower right) has a stealthed planet.

yandonman
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Re: Notes on rev 5507

#8 Post by yandonman »

Can't you expand the bottom section of the planet in the sidepanel and see the planet's stealth?
Indeed, one can.
Stealth95.jpg
Stealth95.jpg (9.62 KiB) Viewed 1773 times
What's that "Inherent" stuff?
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Notes on rev 5507

#9 Post by Geoff the Medio »

yandonman wrote:What's that "Inherent" stuff?
There's often a tiny bit of stealth (or some other meter) given to objects to make things work nicer without requiring an effect to make the adjustment.
eleazar wrote:No, here's how it works with a stealthed planet that you've never had the detection to see.

* From any distance, if the planet is in detection range, but the detector is not in the same system, the planet is utterly invisible (doesn't show up in the side panel.)

* Once the source of detection enters the system with the hidden planet, all info is revealed, but the planet has scanlines over it's image.
Notably, the planet in the 83 systems example doesn't appear if the exploring fleet (a scout at least) is set to passive. What I think is going on is that the battle system is making a weird choice about when to have a battle, and the info you're getting about the planet is gained during battle, which circumvents the usual visibility rules somewhat. The planet is actually not visible to the player's empire according to standard detection rules, which is why it can't be invaded, but if you've had a battle with it (because your not-being-stealthy scout is attacked by the hostile planet), then you get some info on it from the battle.

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eleazar
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Re: Notes on rev 5507

#10 Post by eleazar »

FWIW, i don't like the idea of stealth as "invincible armor".

I think it should primarily work by hiding information from other sides. It is in essence a hidden "colony". Invading planets would be much more chancy if you didn't know the number of the enemy ground troops for instance.

IMHO being stealthed should hide some of the contents of the planet: Most meters, most buildings, species.
Visible buildings would generally be orbitals, but anything sufficiently "obvious" could be tagged as non-stealth-able.


I haven't thought much about the implications of a "hidden" planet fighting or not and thus reveling itself, or not. Has anyone?

Visible meters might be shields and defenses (depending on if we wanted to implement a hide/fight toggle like on ships)

It is arguable weather imperial ownership should be visible. I think it could be interesting if it wasn't, but it could probably be inferred by your diplomatic status (i.e. if it shot at you)

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Re: Notes on rev 5507

#11 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Geoff the Medio wrote:What I think is going on is that the battle system is making a weird choice about when to have a battle...
I've tweaked the code that decides whether to have a battle in a system to consider whether an empire with ships in a system (ie. the player in this situation) can detect a planet (the AI native planet) before deciding to have a battle. Now the stealthy planet doesn't appear at all until the player has sufficient detection to see it.

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Re: Notes on rev 5507

#12 Post by zhamilton »

I have been noticing some weird stealth things too, but then again, I still don't really know what I'm doing so it's very possible that I just don't know what I'm doing. I did have one of my planets (with a colony on it) go stealth, even to me though... I dunno why.


As far as the AI ship preferences... would this be a really good way to make a quick and easy difficulty selection? You wouldn't have to change much of anything, behavior wise, other than the AI prefers, say, the Robot hull to the Endo hull. You know, just for those of us that suck at the game.


And yeah, still noticing slowdowns around turn 150.


PS - I thought I saw something about the invasion pod strength being reduced to 2 from 5? If that's true, it didn't care over to my Mac version.

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eleazar
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Re: Notes on rev 5507

#13 Post by eleazar »

zhamilton wrote:I have been noticing some weird stealth things too, but then again, I still don't really know what I'm doing so it's very possible that I just don't know what I'm doing. I did have one of my planets (with a colony on it) go stealth, even to me though... I dunno why.
That doesn't sound good. Can you provide a more detailed explanation of the event and attach your save file.

zhamilton wrote:PS - I thought I saw something about the invasion pod strength being reduced to 2 from 5? If that's true, it didn't care over to my Mac version.
Then you are probably not playing 5507. That change has made it into at least a couple of the mac binaries.

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Re: Notes on rev 5507

#14 Post by yandonman »

Found a couple cases where Omni-Sensors didn't give visibility/invade-ability in the end game. Beefed Omni-Sensor strength by +200 (previously +70). Possibly overkill, but invisible invade-immunity is really annoying.
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eleazar
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Re: Notes on rev 5507

#15 Post by eleazar »

We've had 2 binaries since 5507.

As noted earlier in this thread, I previously beefed omni-sensors to +200, it is in the latest binary.

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