Notes on 5832

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AndrewW
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Re: Notes on 5832

#16 Post by AndrewW »

MiniMe wrote:Quick question:

It's round ~30 and i'm trying to invade an AI Laenfa planet.
I am also Laenfa.

It's not possible to invade the planet. I press "invade" and next turn nothing happens. So i assume it has to do with Laenfa +40 stealth.
But since i am also Laenfa, shouldn't my +50 detection make me able to invade?

I can see (all) AI's planets...so i dont really understand what's going on :oops:
Might be the planets stealth is higher then what you can detect. There's more then just race involved in the stealth of a planet. Renosant moon for example.

Had one planet I had to go to 210 detection in order to invade it...

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eleazar
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Re: Notes on 5832

#17 Post by eleazar »

You can see exactly how much stealth the planet has (you may have to expand a panel in the sidebar).

The lafena has a bonus to detection Range-- that doesn't help you pierce stealth. Your empire's detection Strength, is shown in the top bar.

MiniMe wrote:I am also Laenfa.
No you aren't. You are playing as an empire that started with Laenfa. You may have mostly Laenfa citizens. But laenfa bonuses don't apply to your empire, only to laenfa ships and planets.

MiniMe
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Re: Notes on 5832

#18 Post by MiniMe »

My mistake. Laenfa get +50 detection range (not strenght).
Neutron Scanner finally allowed me to invade.

edit: sorry, i typed while u posted. But thanks for reply :)

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Dilvish
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Re: Notes on 5832

#19 Post by Dilvish »

eleazar wrote:You can see exactly how much stealth the planet has (you may have to expand a panel in the sidebar).
Actually, that's only true when you have sufficient detection strength to get through their stealth. Below is a screenshot I just made, me as Trith, opponent Laenfa, tiny galaxy so I could be sure to see their home system. The only thing discernible about their home planet is that it is Ocean and has a shipyard and drydock. Of course, that's plenty warning that I won't be able to invade it (under current dynamics).
laenfaPlanet.png
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eleazar
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Re: Notes on 5832

#20 Post by eleazar »

Dilvish wrote:
eleazar wrote:You can see exactly how much stealth the planet has (you may have to expand a panel in the sidebar).
Actually...
Oops. My memory is out of date.

MiniMe
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Re: Notes on 5832

#21 Post by MiniMe »

Dilvish wrote:Actually, that's only true when you have sufficient detection strength to get through their stealth. Below is a screenshot I just made, me as Trith, opponent Laenfa, tiny galaxy so I could be sure to see their home system. The only thing discernible about their home planet is that it is Ocean and has a shipyard and drydock. Of course, that's plenty warning that I won't be able to invade it (under current dynamics).
That must have confused me in my game. I know that "grey" colonies are stealthed, like (Laenfa) Phecda in the screenshot.
But the colony i was trying to invade was fully visible:

Image

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Bigjoe5
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Re: Notes on 5832

#22 Post by Bigjoe5 »

MiniMe wrote:But the colony i was trying to invade was fully visible:
The fact that it's "Grey" has nothing to do with whether or not it's stealthed (at least, directly). The fact that a planet is grey means your empire doesn't know that anyone has a colony there (which may be due to stealth, or because nobody actually has a colony there). What you're seeing is not a fully visible colony - it's a stealthy colony which your empire previously had visibility of, and for which you're getting out-of-date information. You can tell it's not visibly to you because the planet icon itself is scanlined.

I'm not totally sure what's causing this exact situation - most likely the yellow empire colonized that planet, and your empire got a glimpse of it before the stealth bonus took effect, which probably shouldn't happen. Also, I'm starting to think we need to give the player a more obvious indicator when he's looking at out-of-date or stale information.

One thing's for darn sure though - that Invade button shouldn't be there.
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Dilvish
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Re: Notes on 5832

#23 Post by Dilvish »

MiniMe wrote:I know that "grey" colonies are stealthed, like (Laenfa) Phecda in the screenshot. But the colony i was trying to invade was fully visible:
Gamab was at one point visible to you, but no longer is, as evidenced by the scanlines on the planet in sidepanel even with you having a fleet in the system. One way this can happen is that you temporarily caught up to them in detection strength vs stealth, and observed Gamab once during that time but did not observe Phecda during that time. Then they advanced their stealth more so that you can no longer get current info on Gamab (again, as indicated by the scanlines on it); the info shown for Gamab is as of the last time you successfully observed it.

**edit** doh! I just saw that BigJoe had replied before me with pretty much the same info. I really should get in the habit of refreshing a thread before clicking the submit button on a reply, hehe
Last edited by Dilvish on Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Notes on 5832

#24 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Bigjoe5 wrote:What you're seeing is not a fully visible colony - it's a stealthy colony which your empire previously had visibility of, and for which you're getting out-of-date information.
That's partly true... Planets are presently always at least basically visible when in detection range of an empire's objects, meaning players know they are there and some info about them like type and size. The planet may also have been previously observed at partial visibility (which requires a stealth and detection check), and any info gained then but not updated at basic visibility will be retained in the latest known (and possibly out of date) state. This include ownership and meters.
I'm not totally sure what's causing this exact situation - most likely the yellow empire colonized that planet, and your empire got a glimpse of it before the stealth bonus took effect, which probably shouldn't happen.
If a player can detect (via stealth/detection check) a planet on a turn before a stealth boosting effect is active, then on subsequent turns after stealth increases and detection stops working they will still remember the last observed owner and meter levels.

The presence of the invade button reflects the latest known ownership of the planet. There is no requirement that a planet be detectable via stealth / detection levels to show this button. I believe this sort of hidden state but still invadable mechanism is the preferred way for things to work, although probably it should be possible to invade even if no owner has ever been observed on a planet, at the risk of just losing all the troops for no benefit.

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Re: Notes on 5832

#25 Post by MiniMe »

Bigjoe5 wrote:Also, I'm starting to think we need to give the player a more obvious indicator when he's looking at out-of-date or stale information.
I understand why i couldnt invade: stealth > detection strenght

But what i dont quite understand: this is round ~30.
How did i get any information in the first place which is now showing outdated?
Laenfa start with stealth +40 and i hadn't even cued Active Radar, not to mention Neutron Scanner (since i wrongly assumed at that time, that Laenfa have +50 detection strenght)

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Dilvish
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Re: Notes on 5832

#26 Post by Dilvish »

MiniMe wrote:How did i get any information in the first place which is now showing outdated?
Laenfa start with stealth +40 and i hadn't even cued Active Radar, not to mention Neutron Scanner
Ah, then it's probably due to the sequence of applying Effects, taking place just after they colonize it, so if you were observing the planet at the moment they colonized it you would get a glimpse of at least some of the initial stats before the stealth kicks in. I've seen something like that happen a number of times.
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MiniMe
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Re: Notes on 5832

#27 Post by MiniMe »

MiniMe wrote:Rev. 5832

Second game this occurs:
I cannot invade a (gas) planet. The "invade" button does not show (i have a battle fleet in the system, the gas-planet's shields=0).
I've also tried flying in/out again and tried different troop ships/battle fleets: nothing works.

Perhaps this is relevant to find the bug since this is the same procedure in both cases:
I invade the colony-planet and run out of troop ships. The "invade" button shows for the gas planet.
Newly arrived troop ships then dont get the "invade" button for the gas planet anymore.

The GGG bonus works though, so only a minor annoyance :wink:


Edit: it happend again, this time it's a lonely asteroids-outpost. But nothing i captured ealier :?
Edit2: Perhaps this is the problem, since i managed to invade both outposts now: there was no visible colony of the owner on the map when it did NOT work. I just found one last colony, then i could invade both outposts.
Geoff the Medio wrote:It would be a lot easier to diagnose such issues if you'd attach a CROPPED screenshot demonstrating the relevant info for the issue, and/or a ZIPPED save file that reproduces it.
I just ran into this problem again. Attached is the save.
The "invade" button does not show...unless i find another (colonized?) planet of the owner. If u move my fleet from Itzamna up to "?" u will find a colonized planet and then it's possible to invade Menkar.
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invasion_problem.jpg
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Dilvish
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Re: Notes on 5832

#28 Post by Dilvish »

MiniMe wrote:
MiniMe wrote:Rev. 5832
I compiled to version 5832 to try testing this but that save game won't load for me.
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MiniMe
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Re: Notes on 5832

#29 Post by MiniMe »

Weird, i double-checked that the auto-save loads since a manual save of this round always corrupted. I'm afraid this is the only save i have :(

But i saw Rev 5853 is out. I'll attach a save from that version if i run into this again.

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