6654 w/ Jan 26th content

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: 6654 w/ Jan 26th content

#16 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Since this discussion is happening, I'd like to propose some changes to the supply growth progress, and some variation.

First, what are thoughts on:
-Making smaller planets better / larger planets worse for extending supply
-Making different species better or worse at extending supply

Something like these macros being inserted into species scripts:

Code: Select all

NO_SUPPLY
'''
'''

BAD_SUPPLY
'''        EffectsGroup
            scope = And [
                Source
                Planet size = Tiny
            ]
            activation = Planet
            accountinglabel = "STANDARD_COLONY_SUPPLY_LABEL"
            effects = SetSupply Value + 1
'''

AVERAGE_SUPPLY
'''        EffectsGroup
            scope = And [
                Source
                Planet size = [Tiny Small]
            ]
            activation = Planet
            accountinglabel = "STANDARD_COLONY_SUPPLY_LABEL"
            effects = SetSupply Value + 1
'''

GREAT_SUPPLY
'''        EffectsGroup
            scope = And [
                Source
                Planet size = Tiny
            ]
            activation = Planet
            accountinglabel = "STANDARD_COLONY_SUPPLY_LABEL"
            effects = SetSupply Value + 1.5

        EffectsGroup
            scope = And [
                Source
                Planet size = [Small Medium]
            ]
            activation = Planet
            accountinglabel = "STANDARD_COLONY_SUPPLY_LABEL"
            effects = SetSupply Value + 1
'''

ULTIMATE_SUPPLY
'''        EffectsGroup
            scope = And [
                Source
                Planet size = [Tiny Small]
            ]
            activation = Planet
            accountinglabel = "STANDARD_COLONY_SUPPLY_LABEL"
            effects = SetSupply Value + 1.5

        EffectsGroup
            scope = And [
                Source
                Planet size = [Medium Large Huge]
            ]
            activation = Planet
            accountinglabel = "STANDARD_COLONY_SUPPLY_LABEL"
            effects = SetSupply Value + 1
'''
Depending which species get which macros, this could be another means to balance them. As well, it makes smaller planets potentially more valuable, as they're easier to use to extend supply connections.

In addition, I'm pondering making it a bit harder to get supply connections going at the start of the game. This is a bit analagous to a Civ game, where cultural borders don't always expand immediately, and sometimes require some investment or time to grow. It also gives players another early-game goal.

More specifically:
-Orbital Construction supply bonus does not apply to outposts
-Interstellar Logistics gains a fixed +1 bonus to supply range of outposts (but not populated colonies, and still retains its colony-only supply focus bonus of +3 or +4)

Additionally, there might be some specials that influence supply propagation. The Interstellar Logistics boost might increase to +5 if the player has a suitable special and puts a suitable building on that planet to enable exporting it (which is a mechanics I'm pondering using for a few other things as well, forcing the player to pick between different possible uses for a special resource).

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MatGB
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Re: 6654 w/ Jan 26th content

#17 Post by MatGB »

Definitely in favour of species variation, it already exists as a trait that they all get 'standard' for, and it would add character (and Volp should get Ultimate as per their description).

Not as sure on smaller planets getting bonuses but it would make them more useful overall, what would the justification be, story/background?

If Orb Con were to be changed, it'd really mess up the current AI (they use it a lot, I prefer Elevators), and the galaxy generation setup of far too many empty systems (I mean completely empty) would need to be fixed, I use outposts to link planets in the early game, it's pretty much an essential feature.

I pretty much exclusively play Low planets, and need OrbCon to get going at all. It might work with IntLog instead, but that'd make that an even more crucial early game research than it already is and it's not cheap.

Be happy to try it, but I think it'd mess things up a bit, and the AI would really have to be reworked (it's fairly bad on Low/Medium, and awful on Low/Low, Dilvish is getting it better but it's not there yet).

A different approach...

I hated the original supply setup where you had to wait ten turns to extend a single jump (and moved Imperial Palaces fairly regularly just to link places IIRC), but currently you build a place and it gets full supply, you swithc Logistics and it extends all the way, etc. So I tend to flash Logistics on, refuel my ships, then turn it off again, etc.

How about Supply starts at 1 for colonies, 0 for Outposts, and grows max 1 per turn until you've got, say, Force Energy Structures when it goes up to 2 per? Not sure how hard that would be to script but it'd make it more of a growing thing instead of a jumping thing. And captured planets should probably reset to minimum as well, which would help reduce the current ability to do everything on the turn they're captured, etc.
Mat Bowles

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: 6654 w/ Jan 26th content

#18 Post by Geoff the Medio »

MatGB wrote:Not as sure on smaller planets getting bonuses but it would make them more useful overall, what would the justification be, story/background?
Less gravity well makes things easier to move around.
How about Supply starts at 1 for colonies, 0 for Outposts, and grows max 1 per turn until you've got, say, Force Energy Structures when it goes up to 2 per? Not sure how hard that would be to script...
There is a TurnsSinceFocusChange property that could be used to make supply range grow for populated planets (which have a focus) but not outposts. A more general implementation would involve adding / restoring a target or max supply meter that is directly modified by supply-boosting effects, while the active supply meter grows up / towards the target or max.

yandonman
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Re: 6654 w/ Jan 26th content

#19 Post by yandonman »

One additional thought: infrastructure influences supply distance....
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Dilvish
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Re: 6654 w/ Jan 26th content

#20 Post by Dilvish »

ok I just committed a few related changes.
-- put the logistics focus bonus to the intermediate value of +3
-- slightly reduced the likelihood of NoWorld with Low planet density (table mod of 90 changed to 85, compared to 70 for medium density)
-- added a GalaxyShapeModToPlanetSizeDist universe table (currently all zeros) that could be used for minor additional adjustments to planet size distributoins for Cluster or Irregiular galaxies or whatnot.
-- added a log summary of planet count distribution across systems

some initial sample info from that above log, for a 300 system galaxy:
medium planet density was yielding 400-500 planets total with 105-140 empty systems
original low density: 145-165 planets with 190 to 205 empty systems
modified low density: 200-230 planets with 160 to 200 empty systems
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: 6654 w/ Jan 26th content

#21 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Geoff the Medio wrote:There is a TurnsSinceFocusChange property that could be used to make supply range grow for populated planets...
Try changing the logistics focus effects group in species.txt to:

Code: Select all

        EffectsGroup
            scope = Source
            activation = Focus "FOCUS_LOGISTICS"
            accountinglabel = "SHP_INTSTEL_LOG"
            effects = SetSupply Value + max(3, Source.TurnsSinceFocusChange)
and report how it works? Alternatively, try

Code: Select all

effects = SetSupply Value + max(3, (Source.TurnsSinceFocusChange)^0.5)
For a slower growth curve.

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MatGB
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Re: 6654 w/ Jan 26th content

#22 Post by MatGB »

That looks like it would work for IntLog, I was thinking more in general, if you build a colony in the late game, or capture one, you're looking at a supply range of immediately, vastly extending range into enemy territory, etc.
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: 6654 w/ Jan 26th content

#23 Post by Geoff the Medio »

MatGB wrote:...if you build a colony in the late game, or capture one, you're looking at a supply range of immediately, vastly extending range into enemy territory, etc.
I could suggest potential future considerations with planet happiness affecting supply range effects, but it sounds like your preference would be best served by having a max supply meter with the active supply meter increasing towards it as turns progress.

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MatGB
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Re: 6654 w/ Jan 26th content

#24 Post by MatGB »

Geoff the Medio wrote:I could suggest potential future considerations with planet happiness affecting supply range effects, but it sounds like your preference would be best served by having a max supply meter with the active supply meter increasing towards it as turns progress.
Exactly, and someday I'll learn game terminology well enough to explain things in half a sentence instead of three paragraphs ;-)

Happiness might also be a plan for it, but until that's working as an overall mechanic I can't say at all and that's largely been your ongoing thing, if it gets to the stage where scripting for parts &c is needed I think it's a good plan, but until you've got the basics running...

What do you think of the idea though, setting supply as a target value that goes up over a few turns? One per would work, as it wouldn't take the age to connect that Inf based supply used to be but wouldn't be the instant fix that it currently is.
Mat Bowles

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: 6654 w/ Jan 26th content

#25 Post by Geoff the Medio »

MaxSupply meters have been re-added in SVN. Supply meters currently grow by +1/turn though, so it doesn't take long to extend supply from newly-conquered planets.

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Re: 6654 w/ Jan 26th content

#26 Post by MatGB »

That's perfect, I saw you'd added that and smiled. Obviously, it'll take some testing to see if it's either enough or really annoying (I hope it's not the latter), but it should hopefully also slow down steamrolling invasions against AIs and also stop space elevator/IntLog combos tht let you push so far out of your base territory quickly it's silly.

And if we also sort repairs out to make it a lot more supply line based that mkes things more interesting again, I hate playing with unmodified advanced damage control, as soon as I've finished the stuff I'm doing on Robotic Hulls I'll redo the patch on that.
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: 6654 w/ Jan 26th content

#27 Post by Geoff the Medio »

MatGB wrote:...stop space elevator/IntLog combos tht let you push so far out of your base territory quickly it's silly.
How will it help with that to delay the expansion of supplt range a few turns...?

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Re: 6654 w/ Jan 26th content

#28 Post by MatGB »

Because if it takes time to extend supply then you can't switch focus for one turn and reful an invasion fleet taking a weird route around defences, etc, which is currently one of my favourite Rush tactics in the midgame when I'm playing Organics (and I really think complete victory over 8+ AIs in 300+ system maps shouldn't be regularly acheivable by turn 170ish, which is one of the reasons I wanted IntLog toned down in the first place).

Plus, if you're on a Low planets setting colonies tend to be very dispersed and the ability to just push forward constantly with range jumps with each conquest also helps that. Matters less if you're playing slower shiptypes like robot or asteroid, but especially with energy hulls massive jumps in supply range make it too easy to destroy everything.
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: 6654 w/ Jan 26th content

#29 Post by Geoff the Medio »

MatGB wrote:Definitely in favour of species variation, it already exists as a trait that they all get 'standard' for, and it would add character (and Volp should get Ultimate as per their description).
I've also committed a set of macros with varying levels of supply propagation. Currently the AVERAGE_POPULATION macro has the GREAT_SUPPLY macro in it, so that species on large planets have the same supply as was the case previously. This could be removed and species giving thematically or strategically appropriate choices of the various other supply macros, instead.

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Re: 6654 w/ Jan 26th content

#30 Post by MatGB »

Aye, read it through last night, looks good, when it's next compiled I'll play around with some effects—might be a way to add additional balance to some of the overpowered non-playable critters, like the Mu Ursh. Thx for all this, it'll take an adjustment of strategy but it should make the game more interesting.
Mat Bowles

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