Feedback from an Orion newbie

Describe your experience with the latest version of FreeOrion to help us improve it.

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johnsmithson
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Feedback from an Orion newbie

#1 Post by johnsmithson »

Played v0.4.3-6281

I'm really keen on playing this game - it has real potential. I'm a huge turn based strategy fan but have never played the Orion themed games. I want to make a few points about Free Orion after playing it a few days:

- it's way too hard for beginners
- the tech tree is way too complicated

I guess you're trying to replicate Master Of Orion which I've never played. However if you want this game to be approachable by newbies to the Orion theme you really need to dumb it down.

I've played a bunch of times, going back to previous saves, and no matter what I do I keep getting whipped whenever I go into combat against an AI player. Even if I have more powerful ships they still whip me. So I've only ever won a warship vs scout combat which is pretty lame.

Put in a difficulty setting. When it's on 'easy', it should be really easy. I don't know what the 'max aggression' thing is, just make all AI players do everything more slowly. They should advance in the tech tree more slowly, and product stuff more slowly. For a good example of how this works well check out Civ 5. If newbies like me never succeed against the AI we'll just remove the game and never come back.

I also suggest you hugely dumb down the tech tree. Group the tech into 3 or 4 streams rather than the approx 10 there are now. Make the streams simple like 'attack', 'defense', 'research improvement', 'production improvement'. When I play the game I have no idea what all the tech does.

ASGeek2012
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Re: Feedback from an Orion newbie

#2 Post by ASGeek2012 »

I'm glad I'm not the only one that has the problem of being unable to beat the game. I also found that the monster density is still too high even on "low" when playing on spiral galaxies. I don't want to turn it off completely as I enjoy the challenge of having to keep on top of things militarily in the early game, but it can get out of hand. The other day I had a game which was finally winnable until I got handed the equivalent of a giant space flea from nowhere in the form of 15 black krakens that proceeded to obliterate my fleet of huge asteroid-hulled ships and kill off all my population with biological attacks.

As for the tech tree, for me it's not that it's too dense but that there are too many techs whose sole purpose is to be a prerequisite for another tech. I tend to work on a reward system when deciding what tech to research. If I have two techs to choose between, one gives me something tangible that I can use now while the other does nothing immediately for me, I'm going to pick the first one. This often makes me fall behind in some key tech later.

I really do enjoy this game overall, and I think for the most part it is headed in the right direction, but it needs some more balancing. On first glance it appears the AI is handled with python scripts. I suppose I could experiment with hacking them, since I'm a good python coder.

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Dilvish
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Re: Feedback from an Orion newbie

#3 Post by Dilvish »

ASGeek2012 wrote:I also found that the monster density is still too high even on "low" when playing on spiral galaxies.
FO is intended to be highly user-customizable; you can edit those monster densities towards the end of the file "default/universe_tables.txt".
I don't want to turn it off completely as I enjoy the challenge of having to keep on top of things militarily in the early game, but it can get out of hand. The other day I had a game which was finally winnable until I got handed the equivalent of a giant space flea from nowhere in the form of 15 black krakens that proceeded to obliterate my fleet of huge asteroid-hulled ships and kill off all my population with biological attacks.
Ah, the black Kraken are not part of the regular monster spawns; they come from a building called an Experimentor Outpost; you could edit the "BLD_EXPERIMENTOR_OUTPOST" entry in "default/buildings.txt" to delay their appearance or something. The FO scripting language is described here; that's a bit outdated but mostly accurate.
I suppose I could experiment with hacking [the AI files], since I'm a good python coder.
That would be great! I've done most of the AI work for the past year or so, but for a while now haven't had as much time for it as it could use. Universe generation is also something we're in the middle of moving over to being handles by python scripts; it's largely there but not all the way yet. I suggest you play the game more :D to get more familiar with it, and start poking around at those scripts. A brief outline of the AI structure & features can be found here. If you have questions feel free to send me a pm.
If I provided any code, scripts or other content here, it's released under GPL 2.0 and CC-BY-SA 3.0

ASGeek2012
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Re: Feedback from an Orion newbie

#4 Post by ASGeek2012 »

Hey, thanks for the detailed reply, Dilvish, I appreciate it.

Yeah, I actually started grep'ing through the config files and started to trace back where the heck those kraken came from and I just might see about delaying them or toning them down. I've already modified one of the files to nerf the psychogenic domination tech.

The scripting doesn't look terribly hard to understand after having played the game for a bit. I think it's a very good approach to programming the game. Offloading most of that logic into configuration files make the game a lot easier to tweak. I did see the threads where you're moving the universe creation to its own script.

Do you guys have a road map anywhere for your next major release? I tried looking on the wiki but it seems to be a bit outdated.

EDIT: Ah! Finding and capturing the experimentor outpost is a victory condition of the game! Rather than nerfing it I may just do as suggested and delay its appearance.

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MatGB
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Re: Feedback from an Orion newbie

#5 Post by MatGB »

johnsmithson wrote:- it's way too hard for beginners
Agree completely, the learning curve is massively steep and something that needs some work on. However, and I say this as just another player who's been playing on and off for a few years but only got actively involved recently, part of that is the game isn't ready yet, finished yet, etc. Spending time on makign things better explained isn't necessarily time worht spending if that feature is temporary, due for a revamp, etc.

It is, however, something that does need doing, and the Pedia and help files are something I'm looking at as somethign a basic level coder that can't do the serious backend work can do. If, um, you want to help? ;-)
- the tech tree is way too complicated
Agree completely, it's complicated in two ways, firstly there's too many options, second those options aren't at all well explained, nor are the different routes down the same trees.

From the perspective of a very advanced player, having different options, choices, etc are a good thing, and if you get to the point you know which hull types suit your style better, etc I hope you'll think that too. That's not to say it doesn't need work, and I do wonder if an 'advanced' toggle for some of the techs might be something to work at, but I don't know if it'd be worth it.
I guess you're trying to replicate Master Of Orion which I've never played. However if you want this game to be approachable by newbies to the Orion theme you really need to dumb it down.
Actually, it's way different than the Orion games, having replayed 1 & 2 relatively recently (Gog.com regularly has them on offer and they are good fun, but different, 2 is probably best) this game is vastly different and, to me, better, although obviously unfinished.
I've played a bunch of times, going back to previous saves, and no matter what I do I keep getting whipped whenever I go into combat against an AI player. Even if I have more powerful ships they still whip me. So I've only ever won a warship vs scout combat which is pretty lame.
That's weird, if your fleet outlcasses the AI fleet you should win, but we've agreed the learning curve is too steep so...
Put in a difficulty setting. When it's on 'easy', it should be really easy. I don't know what the 'max aggression' thing is, just make all AI players do everything more slowly. They should advance in the tech tree more slowly, and product stuff more slowly.
The aggression setting is basically a difficulty setting, my stepdaughter won't go out of beginner mode, still, which I recommend for you while learning, they do slow the AIs down and make them less inclined to push attacks making it easier to survive while you get your head around things.
If newbies like me never succeed against the AI we'll just remove the game and never come back.
The flip side of that is if it's too dumbed down, then established players that have learnt the game well like, well, me would get very bored, and for an open source project like this you need established players feeding in stuff, etc.

Squaring that circle is hard, and something that needs work on. The question there is, of course, how...
I also suggest you hugely dumb down the tech tree. Group the tech into 3 or 4 streams rather than the approx 10 there are now. Make the streams simple like 'attack', 'defense', 'research improvement', 'production improvement'. When I play the game I have no idea what all the tech does.
I definitely dislike this solution, but simplifying it and making it clearer has to be an objective. I want a game with a massive depth of strategy, which for a game like this needs a tech tree with choices and focuses. Making a fairly simple progression where stuff just gets better as you research will take most of the long term appeal of the game out.

Making it easier tog et started and learn is something that has to happen. But removing the depth of strategy and various choices isn't the way to go and still keep people like me involved. So a different solution is needed and that'll need thought and work.

One, other, observation. There are two sources of monsters within galaxy generation settings, and this isnt' clear and took me awhile to understand.

Wondering monsters, like Kraken, Juggernaughts, Floaters and Dyson Trees are determined by the Monsters setting. But static monsters—Sentry and Sentinel—are spawned by specific Specials, if a planet in a system has, for example, the Gaia special, it will almost certainly have a Sentinel defending it, the Growth specials and similar are normally less well defended but have Sentries.

If you want to play through with a lot less issues to get your head around the basics, then Low or None for both Specials and Monsters will make it easier to get around without dead scouts every turn (also playing Laenfa or Trith makes scouting easier, Trith are really easy to play with if you take out natives and specials and have very few AIs they're really powerful. But DO NOT play Trith as a beginner on a high Natives setting, you'll be doomed).

I said awhileback I was thinking of trying to write a getting started guide (to replace the outdated one on the Wiki) in time for 0.4.4, I'm thinking I'll get started on writing some basic strategy guides for people to brainstorm.

And start a different thread on the idea of having an 'advanced' toggle for the tech tree that takes out non-simplistic techs...
Mat Bowles

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ASGeek2012
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Re: Feedback from an Orion newbie

#6 Post by ASGeek2012 »

MatGB wrote:
johnsmithson wrote:- it's way too hard for beginners
Agree completely, the learning curve is massively steep and something that needs some work on. However, and I say this as just another player who's been playing on and off for a few years but only got actively involved recently, part of that is the game isn't ready yet, finished yet, etc. Spending time on makign things better explained isn't necessarily time worht spending if that feature is temporary, due for a revamp, etc.
What's interesting is that once you get past the learning curve, the mechanics of the gameplay are simple. The focus system and the shared resources make managing things easier. I feel like I'm actually running an empire rather than managing a bunch of individual planets.

I'm finding that the game gets easier to understand once I shift my thinking to an almost purely strategic one. It's like playing chess, I have to think a few turns ahead. There's no "rush buy" option like MOO2 (or many other 4X games for that matter). Though perhaps an idea for future consideration would be a means to shorten production time, perhaps by spending more PP or something similar, maybe requiring a specific tech and/or building.

What will probably make the AIs easier to deal with will be when you guys get around to implementing diplomacy. I always start 4X games being nice to everyone to keep them off my back long enough to build up my economy and military. In MOO2 I almost always took "charismatic" as a race pick to that effect.

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MatGB
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Re: Feedback from an Orion newbie

#7 Post by MatGB »

There is a basic level diplomacy, that doesn't do a huge amount, right click on an AI in the "Empires" window and propose peace, there's a random chance that the AI will agree to not attack you, and that then, currently, lasts until you declare war on them again.

When the AI was introduced in its current actually-working form, it took ages for me to learn to fight them, and I used that all the time to take pressure off. These days I have the opposite problem and find things a bit too easy and am workign with Dilvish (the AI programmer) to make the mid-to-late game AIs, especially the hardest "manical" setting actually able to hold its own.

And yeah, I love the empire management feel of things, and love that the typical micromanage each place approach other games like this I like is largely gone, letting me concentrate on the war fighting side effectively.
Mat Bowles

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ASGeek2012
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Re: Feedback from an Orion newbie

#8 Post by ASGeek2012 »

MatGB wrote:There is a basic level diplomacy, that doesn't do a huge amount, right click on an AI in the "Empires" window and propose peace, there's a random chance that the AI will agree to not attack you, and that then, currently, lasts until you declare war on them again.
Also, if the random chance fails, you can just click on "cancel peace proposal" and keep trying until they accept. Just discovered that now in the game I started earlier today.

What I also seem to be lacking is figuring out the best ratio of industry to research. The AIs are almost always ahead of me. In the game I just mentioned, the first AI I met already has deflector shields and reinforced hull while I'm still at defensive grid.

DBC
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Re: Feedback from an Orion newbie

#9 Post by DBC »

I am another newbie who loved the old Masters of Orion II. Just tried 0.4.3 this weekend.

I also feel the game is too difficult. This is "beginner mode"? I'd hate to try hard.

Most of the time, I can't even find a habitable world within a reasonable distance of my home world.

If, after several attempts, I do, then the AI units squash me before I can even get started. The AI worlds should be farther from the player start.

My first few attempts to play have resulted in enough frustration that I am done. This is not fun.

Maybe I'll try back in a few months to see if progress has been made.

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MatGB
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Re: Feedback from an Orion newbie

#10 Post by MatGB »

1) don't bother with shields. Seriously. Only worth it on really expensive big hulls.

2) about 50/50 in the early game, but I prioritise research until I've got stuff Worth Building.

My very early game tech choices are Nascent AI, Subterranean Habitation, Organic Hulls and then make a decision on what weapon tech to go for depending on what species I'm playing (if you're playing the 0.4.3 release you don't need to do that, just go for laser 3) and slot in other stuff as needed.

Until you've got the ability to build a ship worth using, churn out scouts and possibly troop ships but put everything into research. Once you're able to field either Organic or Asteroid hulls with guns/armour worth using then switch to production and go Invade Everywhere.

Rule of thumb: all Good research/Bad Industry species should research. Any planet in a system with a Gas Giant should switch to industry once you have generator tech regardless of good/bad industry status as long as you've got enough research from elsewhere.

Improving research output is harder than improving industry output, the easiest way to do it is to improve population, Sub Hab, Symbiotic Biology and Orbital Habitation are all essential early-to-mid-game techs as they improve output at everything and allow for more planets to be colonised.

If you're not sure if your research output is high enough, it isn't. On the other hand, if you can't defend yourself and expand then you'll lose, balancing that is part of the strategy but early research leads give you leads in all other fields later on.
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ASGeek2012
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Re: Feedback from an Orion newbie

#11 Post by ASGeek2012 »

Thanks again for the advice. It looks like I've been doing a few things right. I am taking advantage of the game mechanic where when you build a colony ship at a planet inhabited by another race, the ship is populated with natives of that planet. So when I'm fortunate enough to find a race that is good at one thing or another and can colonize other planets, I have them spam out the colony ships so I have more of them in my empire. I often get to the point where my native race are in the minority. Interstellar immigration at its finest :)

So it does look like all I need to do is adjust the ratio a bit. Mine was leaning too much towards production. If I find that I have lots of planets that are good but protected by monsters, I try to beeline my research to laser and better armor. I've also been going for robotic hull first as it has four external slots.

ASGeek2012
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Re: Feedback from an Orion newbie

#12 Post by ASGeek2012 »

DBC wrote:Most of the time, I can't even find a habitable world within a reasonable distance of my home world.
Try finding a planet inhabited with a native species. The type of natives will be shown as an icon with the planet's production. Right-click on the icon and look them up in the pedia. If they are good at something, build troop ships and invade them. If they can build ships and colonize other planets, even better. If you build a colony ship there, they will be able to settle on the same environment where you found them. So if you conquer a race that lives on an inferno world and can colonize planets, you can use them to colonize other inferno worlds.

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MatGB
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Re: Feedback from an Orion newbie

#13 Post by MatGB »

ASGeek2012 wrote:Thanks again for the advice. It looks like I've been doing a few things right. I am taking advantage of the game mechanic where when you build a colony ship at a planet inhabited by another race, the ship is populated with natives of that planet. So when I'm fortunate enough to find a race that is good at one thing or another and can colonize other planets, I have them spam out the colony ships so I have more of them in my empire. I often get to the point where my native race are in the minority. Interstellar immigration at its finest :)
That's a good thing. Unless you're playing Trith, which is why they're more advanced. Natives that CanColonise are brilliant but balance off new systems and war potential, I tend to ramp back my colonising fairly early, the AI won't and invasions are cheaper ;-)
So it does look like all I need to do is adjust the ratio a bit. Mine was leaning too much towards production. If I find that I have lots of planets that are good but protected by monsters, I try to beeline my research to laser and better armor. I've also been going for robotic hull first as it has four external slots.
Yup, Robotic Hulls do have 4 slots. But Organic Hulls have 3 slots and have a base cost about 1/4 that of Robotic Hulls, you can produce far more of them for the same cost.

Rebalancing the costs of the hulls is somethign that we're working on, I'm hoping to get another pass done this week, but until then Robotic Hulls are really far too expensive, the AI will be able to outfight you easily as they're using far cheaper hulls.
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Dilvish
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Re: Feedback from an Orion newbie

#14 Post by Dilvish »

DBC wrote:...Just tried 0.4.3 this weekend....... The AI worlds should be farther from the player start....Maybe I'll try back in a few months to see if progress has been made.
Go ahead and try the most recent test build, there's been a lot of change since 0.4.3. It's also now fairly easy to change the minimum distance between AI starting homeworlds and yours, by changing the min jumps specified in "is_too_close_to_other_home_systems()" in the file default/universe_generation/UniverseGenerator.py"
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ASGeek2012
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Re: Feedback from an Orion newbie

#15 Post by ASGeek2012 »

MatGB wrote:Yup, Robotic Hulls do have 4 slots. But Organic Hulls have 3 slots and have a base cost about 1/4 that of Robotic Hulls, you can produce far more of them for the same cost.

Rebalancing the costs of the hulls is somethign that we're working on, I'm hoping to get another pass done this week, but until then Robotic Hulls are really far too expensive, the AI will be able to outfight you easily as they're using far cheaper hulls.
Ah, I had not noticed the cost difference. I've only started now really looking down to that level of detail.

I'm having to rethink the way I play this game. For example, in one game I got frustrated because the AI's system mines kept blowing up my troop ships no matter how many I threw at it. It took an embarrassingly long time for me to realize that troop ships were not just a stock ship type like in MOO2. A ship is a troop ship simply because it has a troop pod on it. All I had to do was build a new troop ship that had decent armor.

So now I use the original cheap design for as long as I can and then redesign it when the AI starts deploying system mines.

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