General feedback, some criticism and questions :)

Describe your experience with the latest version of FreeOrion to help us improve it.

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Kassiopeija
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General feedback, some criticism and questions :)

#1 Post by Kassiopeija »

Hello guys :)

I really like FO but there are a few things that are annoying and maybe could be done better, so this thread will mainly focus on negative stuff/critics but it isn't ment as a rant but to help improve the game/get some ideas etc


1. The game isn't really challenging! Once you've found out how to beat the AI you can repeat this behaviour successfully in any other game/map. I've never lost a single game, and I play on maniacal exclusively (although I had to scrap a few games - also the first one which I might have lost - because they became unplayable due to lag....). This is so because of a number of reasons - but foremostly because War/Invasion is easier than colonization.

2. You can establish peace with anybody right from the start - even if they turn it down, simple cancel request, repeat it, accepted. This gives you a headstart as you'll have uninterrupted supply, scouts can go free, and gives you the opportunity to declare war once you're set for it while everybody else is at war and thus, busy to keep themselves low.

3. The AI does neither delare war or propose peace even if to do so would greatly aid him.
For example in one of my games as Cray I went on to completely ignore military ships but produced only bases/colonies which were subsequently terraformed/gaia, all gas giants were also turned into planets and I build every single building that was available onto every planet (even though its useless...). In the end I had 2* the production of all other AIs combined, 2* the amount of planets but only 10 ships! While the best AI had ~1000 ships and 50% more researchoutput as me. He could have easily conquered me! But at that situation he stopped producing ships and did nothing at all (Lag was horrible).
He had approximately 600 SpaceInvaders (!on a 25 system starmap!), 200 Decoys (!for 3 planets!) and 200 low-weaponed Griffith.
After producing 200 own warships within 10 turns I destroyed his fleets in 3 turns and then the game (at turn 250) was again fast as if freshly started.

4. I don't quite understand the concept of Decoys. They seem to be bare colony base hulls which can be massproduced for apparently very little cost. However, you can't do anything with them at all, so they only tend to make the game more laggy and eat up production that should be invested into something more useful. Am I missing something?
Generally I think 1pp for it is too low, and besides, a shipyard should have a certain cap for the amount of ships that can be produced in a single turn.

5. The techtree is kinda annoying to look at. On a 1920*1080 screen I can barely see 10% of it. If I zoom out the text on the techs disappears. I would re-design the techtree completely making it smaller, more "tree-like" and more transparent.

6. Techs that don't do anything are annyoing and should be scrapped entirely, their respective researchcosts distributed equally into neighboring (pre-requisite/follow-up) techs. Make all techs do something for the player, either present a new building, a new hull, new shipmodule or baseline empire boni etc. You can still keep a lots of techs/huge techtree by spliting techs that bring several things, for example, "Asteroid Hulls" brings you 2 hulls and 1 building. Why not introduce simply the shipyard and afterwards bring some tech for the specific hulls (which can be researched in the time the shipyard needs to be build...)

7. I cannot close the info window in the techtree although there's a X in the upper right corner. (The same can be said from the pedia index window in the production screen.)

8. Group similar techs together so the player can have a better overview, esp. if these techs are linear like Mass Driver 2-->MD 3-->MD 4 and offer no requisite to other techs.

9. You start out with too many techs! I believe this is so because you get a planet and 4 ships right after start and their respective parts need to have been researched (?). It would be more fun if we had to research these techs and start out with a single bare planet.

10. There's some techs that can cause confusion, eg "Contrived Symbiosis" will introduce the Symbiotic Hull and the Cellular Growth Chamber which implies that you'll have to build this chamber in order to build this hull (which isn't the case) while all other hulltechs will be accompanied by their respective needed shipyard....

11. Some organic hulls need their growth time reduced. After 125 turns the game will either be won or the ship will be seriously outdated thus near-useless while your new heavy ships do severely lack hitpoints. Although the concept of hulls that grow (and are therefore very cheap to produce) is quite nice :)

12. Some techs do need to be rebalanced in terms of research costs in order to promote a more divers gameplay. Esp. everything that has to do with military needs to be stifled and everything that has to do with colonization has to be buffed.

13. In my personal opinion a 4X game should promote colonization over conquest, esp. in the early stages of the game when these resources (planets) are still unoccupied. However, as the game is now, building a few warships and troopers is more easy than colony ships! And it does provide you with a better advantage generally – conquered planets provide more infrastructure and population/production than if I have to start from scratch. In addition, conquered planets do no longer benefit my enemies. Plus, adding a new race into my empire will greatly increase my possibility to colonize previously hostile planets!!

14. Going early to war and conquering the surrounding races will let you win any game.
This renders all other techs, esp. interesting late-game techs such as Star-Gates, Artificial Planets etc useless/redundant, you don't need them to win. In fact, concentrating on these will delay and seriously stifle your path to victory.
Logically, claiming free planets should be easier than conquering one because of the resistant force you'll have to defeat in such a scenario.
So basically the player/AI should aim to grab all planets and make outposts while they are still free, then build up his empire through adding more buildings (ie terraforming), getting more production through maxing out population etc and then once certain caps are reached and no more growth is possible should weigh possibilities/ ups&downs of declaring war and conquering/annexing systems militarily. Conquest should come with severe drawbacks and thus, have to carefully planed.
Basically increase the research cost of weapons and armour by a large margin and put them somewhere in the mid section of the tree, so you can't research them right away.
Reduce the build costs for the Colony Pod.

15. Increase the buildcosts of the Ground Troop Pod by a large margin and nerf it to hold only 1 unit of troopers. Introduce a second Ground Troop Pod which will hold 2 units, make a new branch of the techtree which will let you research these Troop Pods and put it also somewhere in the mid section of the techtree.
Besides, I don't quite get it how the planets defensive troops have to be grown with each turn, and at that, quite slowly with +1/turn – while offensive troopers come unlimitedly out of nowhere. In my last game I could build an average of 20 Troopsships per turn who hold 10 units = 200 troops while all my planets combined could possibly reach only 1/4 of that number, realistically not even 1/10 because my core planets were all capped. And then release these ships from a single planet that is freshly conquered and which has just 5 units of troops for itself^^

16. Although I realize this would require a major update of the game, I suggest making troops a resource that can be shipped via the Troop Module, you can only take what is grown on a planet, and only refill a planet to its cap. This would promote another interesting gameplay, that is, ferrying troops around, mostly from old core worlds which are usually capped, to freshly acquired planets in order to boost their defenses. Or to border planets which are more likely to become victim of an attack, or that had been attacked etc... Besides, using Troops for invasion would also mean a trade-off, as it would leave your own planets more vulnerable.

17. I don't quite get what infrastructure does...? There's one tech which will grant me better regeneration of shields (or defense...) by a division of my infrastructure but besides that, I wouldn't know why I would want to keep in positive numbers... Usually I build a Starport + Drydock everywhere so my ships will be repaired always and these to buildings make my infrastructure to be 0.

18. The Space Elevator is kinda redundant. I never had to build it because the baseline supply and the extra ones you get from techs are enough under all circumstances. The idea of sharing resources via supply lines is really nice but there should be some sort of limitation or a trade-off with it. Especially if we keep in mind you can always be at peace with everyone. Maybe the game could be designed that only neighboring planets can share their resources, and if one wanted to make supply systemwide then these Space Elevators would be needed on the planets where the supply would traverse in order for the supply to be able to be passed through.

19. You can easily defeat any AI by building warships/troops in advance, posting them onto his planets, declare war, conquering him completely within a single turn. Without any planets anymore his remaining warships usually aren't much of a threat.... Basically the AI should always declare war if you post sufficient troopers or warships (or both) at his systems. Further, the AI won't accept peace anymore after you've battled with him a few times, even if he hasn't left any ships and only a single planet while your own forces dominate the galaxy. The AI also has to observe your own military forces, and if they are inadequate, he should declare war.

20. The combat system, how attack works vs shields and armour, and how combat speed chimes in here, should be explained somewhere in the game so that ship design can be done right.

21. Shields are mostly useless and way too expensive. Although I understand the need to carefully weigh them because if they are too strong your ships will become invincible which will make them a I-win-button, but in their current state you're way better off with armour. In a game last week I got the +15 shield very early from an ancient ruin through archaeology and I think such a major breakthrough should have a significant impact onto the game. However, as it was, it was nothing but a major drawback (!). I usually don't use shields but because of this incident, decided to use it, which doubled the build-cost for all my warships (!!), that is, it also reduced my overall empire-wide sum of attack & structure-output by 50%. However, the whole galaxy (45 systems) was consistently filled with gas clouds who render shields useless... During the whole game there were only 2 single battles were these super-shields did work! lmao

22. Does Psionics work? I researched this while having a Trith colony under my control but the research costs weren't reduced... (Maybe they were, but only the display didn't show....)

23. I think the Artificial Moon is either too expensive to build, or its bonus is too small. With 250PP you can build 2-3 midclass warships, which will provide better protection of your system than a little stealth, and which also can be used offensively. Also the whole concept of stealth/hiding is redundant because of the fact you can always be at peace with everyone.

24. Artificial Planet is WAAAYYYY too expensive, with 2k PP you can easily conquer a neighboring empire if you do it early.

25. What does Galactive Infrastrucure specifically do? It says, it increases the "supply line range" (underlining by me) but even without it I never ran into any trouble connecting all my planets even if they are far apart from each other... Or does this tech increase the number of lanes a planet will support? Regardless, both aren't really needed and 1,5k RP for it is quite too much....

26. The detection strength of all sensors is currently shown as 0, the same error is in the Distortion Modular part.

27. Does the stealth from the Multi-spectral shield work together with other stealth-generating shipparts? And how great is the stealth granted by this shield? Besides, does stealth play a role in actual combat? And does stealth from hulls, such as asteroid hull in a system with asteroids, stack with shippart-stealth?

28. Do engines also improve Combat Speed?

29. Biological Warfare as it is now is kinda useless for a number of reasons. First off, the specific shipparts are in the midpart of the techtree while their counter Genome Bank can and is reached very soon. Although you could bombard that planet until its destroyed, but Genome Bank is way too cheap to be rebuild.
Nevertheless, there's no reason to use Bio-War when you have space superiority because troop ships are amongst the most cheapest ships to build and it is far more beneficial to simple invade and annex a planet than to reduce its population (which, after successful annexion will be your OWN loss!!!)

30. The game doesn't end when you defeated all enemy ships and control all planets....(?)

31. Once you research Singularity of Trancendence the game will tell you that you win but what the heck, still the game goes on... (??) lol

32. I wonder if the Interstellar Lighthouse (and other stuff like Distortion Modular) are even positively contributing to your own game. The stealth reduction of your own planets or ships could mean that the enemy will be enabled to see them and subsequently, send ships to them. And just to get +10 starlane speed. Furthermore I wonder if a ship has to halt directly unto a system to receive this speed-boonus? What if it only passes near-by? For example, in one game I was building Asteroid Ships in the back corner of my empire and had to send these through 5-6 systems to the frontline, and did built a lighthouse on each of these systems in hope to speed things up, but besides the first Lighthouse at the Asteroid system I can't say if it did work....

33. Planetary Starlane Drive tells you to have a Lighthouse within 200 uu.... How much of a distance is this and how can we make that visible on the map?

34. I wasn't able to terraform to good/ gaia transform planets with Exobots, why is this so?

35. The AI consequently builds exobot colony origins even though he has already established an exobot colony and they could simply build a colony ship there (which is cheaper). Furthermore, he also builds this colony origin even though there is no place to go for the exobots (everything colonized). I would say he is obsessed with those bots^^

36. Concerning the order of introducing new hulls, I'd suggest puting those that have more external slots (for making warships) in the mid-section of the branch while having those with less external but more internal (for scouts, or light raiders) to its beginning. For example, I usually only research Organic Hull for fighters, and its follow up Contrived Symbiosis for 8 troop invaders and you're set.

37. It would be nice to know if a ship is repaired to its maximal structure so you don't have to manually backcheck the fleets ships.

Allright, that would be all (for now)^^
Cheers

mileser
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Re: General feedback, some criticism and questions :)

#2 Post by mileser »

Which version are you using? Download the latest test version and some of your concerns have already been addressed. AI has become much stronger.

I'm not one of the programmers, so can't answer your specific questions.

Please remember this game is still in Alpha, but I've found it to be very stable - more stable than many Commercial games that have already been released.

They release test versions on a weekly basis, usually Monday, and continue to fix various details, add features, fix bugs, and tweak details.

Also, please remember, they only have a few programmers who are doing this on their own free time. Programmers seem to come and go. Some still learning programming. Despite this, they have done a phenomenal job - impressive really and it is multi-platform. I don't see any other game project on Source-Forge or elsewhere that has such an active development team. They also listen to feedback, so do expect responses from the programming team. If you have any programming experiences, you can even join in... :)
OS: OS X 10.10 Yosemite, XCode 6.01
Also: If I provided any code, scripts or other content here, it's released under GPL 2.0 and CC-BY-SA 3.0

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: General feedback, some criticism and questions :)

#3 Post by Geoff the Medio »

You should mention the version you're playing. If it's v0.4.2, you should update to a recent test build.

The diplomacy system is very limited, as it hasn't really been designed or implemented yet. If you want to abuse it to take advantage of the AI, you can, but as you note, doing so won't make for a very interesting game, so suggest just staying at war with the AI empires.

There is a distance scale visible at the top left of the map by default. If you don't have it, enable it in the options, galaxy map tab, galaxy distance scale line check.

You can mouse over a ship's structure icon (not a fleet) to see its max structure and the effects that contribute to that value.

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Dilvish
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Re: General feedback, some criticism and questions :)

#4 Post by Dilvish »

Kassiopeija wrote:You can establish peace with anybody right from the start - even if they turn it down, simple cancel request, repeat it, accepted. This gives you a headstart...The AI does neither delare war or propose peace even if to do so would greatly aid him.
Ah yeah, I put that peace acceptance in there just as a placeholder for more complicated diplomacy; I had thought it would be fairly clear to everyone that diplomacy is not a really a functional system for single player games at this time. The AI does declare ware at the start of the game. As it stands now the game is only interesting if left in that state of war. Some thoughts on more complicated diplomacy have been discussed but are not likely to be implemented anytime soon. Given that you are not the only person who can't resist spamming peace requests to the AI, but then complains that they eventually get accepted, I may go ahead and simply disable that for now to eliminate that source of apparently frustrating temptation.
The Space Elevator is kinda redundant. I never had to build it
I'll guess then that you have probably not played many games with low planet density and low starlanes, particularly with irregular or cluster galaxy shapes. Not every building/techs/etc. is intended to be required across all galaxy setup options or in every game.
If I provided any code, scripts or other content here, it's released under GPL 2.0 and CC-BY-SA 3.0

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MatGB
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Re: General feedback, some criticism and questions :)

#5 Post by MatGB »

Kassiopeija wrote:Hello guys :)

I really like FO but there are a few things that are annoying and maybe could be done better, so this thread will mainly focus on negative stuff/critics but it isn't ment as a rant but to help improve the game/get some ideas etc
Good good, welcome &c, but a scan through of your whole posts makes it look to me as if you're using the most recent stable release, 0.4.3, and a lot of the stuff you're commenting on is fixed in the most recent Test release (0.4.3+), we're discussing moving to 0.4.4 soon but there are a few things to finish off I believe, in the meantime current Test build is stable and rather good.
1. The game isn't really challenging! Once you've found out how to beat the AI you can repeat this behaviour successfully in any other game/map. I've never lost a single game, and I play on maniacal exclusively (although I had to scrap a few games - also the first one which I might have lost - because they became unplayable due to lag....). This is so because of a number of reasons - but foremostly because War/Invasion is easier than colonization.
Agree and disagree, I find it fairly easy to win, but challenge myself by completely changing settings regularly. If you really think you're that good, try playing Egassem on a Low Planets, Low Starlanes large map with one AI per 40-50 systems. You'll, probably, still eventually win, but it'll be a LOT harder ;-)

Lag has also got better over time, but gets worse with lots of ships or colonised planets, hence Low planets reduces that while makign it harder to explore/colonise.
2. You can establish peace with anybody right from the start - even if they turn it down, simple cancel request, repeat it, accepted. This gives you a headstart as you'll have uninterrupted supply, scouts can go free, and gives you the opportunity to declare war once you're set for it while everybody else is at war and thus, busy to keep themselves low.
True. Diplomacy isn't finished, simply don't do this, problem solved (I used to do this, I now don't and don't need to)
3. The AI does neither delare war or propose peace even if to do so would greatly aid him.
Again, the AI doesn't yet know about this.
4. I don't quite understand the concept of Decoys. They seem to be bare colony base hulls which can be massproduced for apparently very little cost. However, you can't do anything with them at all, so they only tend to make the game more laggy and eat up production that should be invested into something more useful. Am I missing something?
Generally I think 1pp for it is too low, and besides, a shipyard should have a certain cap for the amount of ships that can be produced in a single turn.
Decoys are something the AI builds on lower challenge settings as they're moderately useful in combat as they absorb shots. I never use them, they're a waste of time and they increase Fleet Upkeep far too much for my tastes, but they're a strategic option. They're just not a good strategic option, hence the not-very-good AIs use them but the maniacal ones don't.
5. The techtree is kinda annoying to look at. On a 1920*1080 screen I can barely see 10% of it. If I zoom out the text on the techs disappears. I would re-design the techtree completely making it smaller, more "tree-like" and more transparent.
Use the filters. The tech tree is in a state of flux and getss changed regularly (I've changed it twice in the last couple months), we're rationalising it as we go, but it's always going to have a lot of options in there as the game is meant to have a fair degree of strategic choice for a player.
6. Techs that don't do anything are annyoing and should be scrapped entirely, their respective researchcosts distributed equally into neighboring (pre-requisite/follow-up) techs. Make all techs do something for the player, either present a new building, a new hull, new shipmodule or baseline empire boni etc. You can still keep a lots of techs/huge techtree by spliting techs that bring several things, for example, "Asteroid Hulls" brings you 2 hulls and 1 building. Why not introduce simply the shipyard and afterwards bring some tech for the specific hulls (which can be researched in the time the shipyard needs to be build...)
I sorta agree and sort of disagree. Some prerequisites are currently useful as they open up other options, splitting their costs might not be as good (the one that springs to mind is the prerequisite for both Subterranean Habitation and Symbiotic Biology, both are essential early game techs that could be resesigned in some way, but the prereq opens up both, and a few other things, and that's fine. It needs further work, and crucially is getting further work, but there's no clear need to solve everything at once (as it's something I'm able to do, unlike the higher end programming stuff, I am sort of working through things as a learning process but I'd rather the better devs fix things like lag problems over tech tree design, for now, the game's playable).
7. I cannot close the info window in the techtree although there's a X in the upper right corner. (The same can be said from the pedia index window in the production screen.)
That's ont he feature requests page I believe, but yes, annoying UI issue.
8. Group similar techs together so the player can have a better overview, esp. if these techs are linear like Mass Driver 2-->MD 3-->MD 4 and offer no requisite to other techs.
They are, normally, depending on the view you've chosen.
9. You start out with too many techs! I believe this is so because you get a planet and 4 ships right after start and their respective parts need to have been researched (?). It would be more fun if we had to research these techs and start out with a single bare planet.
Disagree there, it's a game of space exploration, starting with nothing would be problematic and a bit dull, I want to start exploring.

But, the game's infinitely scriptable, maybe at some point it could have a 'starting development' setting that allows for this as an option.
10. There's some techs that can cause confusion, eg "Contrived Symbiosis" will introduce the Symbiotic Hull and the Cellular Growth Chamber which implies that you'll have to build this chamber in order to build this hull (which isn't the case) while all other hulltechs will be accompanied by their respective needed shipyard....
That's a new change deliberately introduced by me, Symbiotic Hull did require the Chamber, but the better hull would be available by the time it was built, I decided game balance wise that it was more balanced to have the tech unlock a basic hull that can be built immediately and a building for the later hulls. But the whole hulls/parts/buildings design is in a state of flux and I'm amending things gradually, feel free to contribute to the threads on the subject. Some of the tech tree will need reworkign at some point but that then needs reworking the AI in ways I can't do on my own ;-)
11. Some organic hulls need their growth time reduced. After 125 turns the game will either be won or the ship will be seriously outdated thus near-useless while your new heavy ships do severely lack hitpoints. Although the concept of hulls that grow (and are therefore very cheap to produce) is quite nice :)
That is, I thought, fixed in Trunk as, basically, I agree with you, the smaller hulls grow at 0.2 per turn, the larger hulls now grow by 0.5 per turn making the growth finish over far fewer turns. If I missed one or (more likely) forgot to change the write up let me know.
12. Some techs do need to be rebalanced in terms of research costs in order to promote a more divers gameplay. Esp. everything that has to do with military needs to be stifled and everything that has to do with colonization has to be buffed.
Sort of agree, that's a Scripting and Balancing issue but was a far lower priority than the big issue with certain hull lines, and it's an ongoing issue, general balance overall has been something I've been putting a lot of effort but this isn't my innediate next project—it could be yours if you like ;-)
13. In my personal opinion a 4X game should promote colonization over conquest, esp. in the early stages of the game when these resources (planets) are still unoccupied. However, as the game is now, building a few warships and troopers is more easy than colony ships! And it does provide you with a better advantage generally – conquered planets provide more infrastructure and population/production than if I have to start from scratch. In addition, conquered planets do no longer benefit my enemies. Plus, adding a new race into my empire will greatly increase my possibility to colonize previously hostile planets!!
I like this aspect of the game, but we have been discussing changing the way invasions work a bit, increasing troop numbers/costs of troop pods, etc.
14. Going early to war and conquering the surrounding races will let you win any game.
This renders all other techs, esp. interesting late-game techs such as Star-Gates, Artificial Planets etc useless/redundant, you don't need them to win. In fact, concentrating on these will delay and seriously stifle your path to victory.
Planets I agree with you on, more below, but Stargates?

I don't think you're playing on big enough maps, or have encountered Experimentor issues fully. I use aTransformer based stargate network in virtually every game, if I haven't got it up and running by turn 150ish then I get worried, absolutely need it by turn 200.

But yeah, some of the later game techs and other cool things need reqorking, as does costs of planets/development over warmongering.


Snipped a lot of stuff about troops that are basically good ideas worthy of a completely different thread or that already have threads on.
17. I don't quite get what infrastructure does...? There's one tech which will grant me better regeneration of shields (or defense...) by a division of my infrastructure but besides that, I wouldn't know why I would want to keep in positive numbers... Usually I build a Starport + Drydock everywhere so my ships will be repaired always and these to buildings make my infrastructure to be 0.
Currently in a state of flux, it used to be linked to supply range, but that was horrible, and there's a couple threads on the subject as to what, if anything, to do with it now. Currently, it only really affects defences and shield regeneration, but many of us think it should do more.
18. The Space Elevator is kinda redundant. I never had to build it because the baseline supply and the extra ones you get from techs are enough under all circumstances. The idea of sharing resources via supply lines is really nice but there should be some sort of limitation or a trade-off with it. Especially if we keep in mind you can always be at peace with everyone. Maybe the game could be designed that only neighboring planets can share their resources, and if one wanted to make supply systemwide then these Space Elevators would be needed on the planets where the supply would traverse in order for the supply to be able to be passed through.
Try more galaxy settings, especially Low planets, and in Trunk we've changed how the Elevator works a fair bit, it's an essential building in certain circumstances, but can be pointless on small dense maps. I rarely get througha game without building one, but I rarely play on anything above Low planet these days as I want large maps with strategic challenges.
19. You can easily defeat any AI by building warships/troops in advance, posting them onto his planets, declare war, conquering him completely within a single turn. Without any planets anymore his remaining warships usually aren't much of a threat.... Basically the AI should always declare war if you post sufficient troopers or warships (or both) at his systems. Further, the AI won't accept peace anymore after you've battled with him a few times, even if he hasn't left any ships and only a single planet while your own forces dominate the galaxy. The AI also has to observe your own military forces, and if they are inadequate, he should declare war.
Diplomacy system doesn't work, so don't do this. But yeah, having more warships than your opponent does tend to mean you've won ;-)
20. The combat system, how attack works vs shields and armour, and how combat speed chimes in here, should be explained somewhere in the game so that ship design can be done right.
Combat has just had a fairly major revamp, writing it all up better will be happening once we know we're happy with said revamp.
21. Shields are mostly useless and way too expensive. Although I understand the need to carefully weigh them because if they are too strong your ships will become invincible which will make them a I-win-button, but in their current state you're way better off with armour. In a game last week I got the +15 shield very early from an ancient ruin through archaeology and I think such a major breakthrough should have a significant impact onto the game. However, as it was, it was nothing but a major drawback (!). I usually don't use shields but because of this incident, decided to use it, which doubled the build-cost for all my warships (!!), that is, it also reduced my overall empire-wide sum of attack & structure-output by 50%. However, the whole galaxy (45 systems) was consistently filled with gas clouds who render shields useless... During the whole game there were only 2 single battles were these super-shields did work! lmao
Shields are a waste of time on cheap hulls, but very useful on expensive hulls. Balancing their costs/effectiveness has been something planned since the current mechanic was introduced but it is about right. A small Organic ship is better off with armour and fuel.

A large heavy battleship benefits massively from shields and the costs are about right. I do sometimes go through entire games without using any shields, in other games I use them constantly, it depends both on the geography (fields are a bit random, deliberately, and are more common with lots of AIs in dense galaxies) and the techline I go down.

A Heavy Asteroid hull with 3 armour slots, 3 gun slots and a decent shield can take on many many cheap non shielded ships. I don't think the balance is 100% right currently, but it was more important to get the hulls balanced properly, which is far closer to done now than it was this time last month.
22. Does Psionics work? I researched this while having a Trith colony under my control but the research costs weren't reduced... (Maybe they were, but only the display didn't show....)
It's 600 total without a telepathic species, 100 with it. There are a few other advantages, and I'd like to script more, but currently, yes, it does work, at least for me, and if it doesn't there's a bug.
23. I think the Artificial Moon is either too expensive to build, or its bonus is too small. With 250PP you can build 2-3 midclass warships, which will provide better protection of your system than a little stealth, and which also can be used offensively. Also the whole concept of stealth/hiding is redundant because of the fact you can always be at peace with everyone.
24. Artificial Planet is WAAAYYYY too expensive, with 2k PP you can easily conquer a neighboring empire if you do it early.
Again, diplomacy is broken, don't use it, game is better. Moon is expensive, currently, and is higher up on my list of things to balance than a few other things, I want to put a lot of work into stealth mechanics and bonuses next few months but there are a few other things to do first.

One of the problems the game did have was there was only one real way worth going to victory wise. This is something I'd like to change, and a sneaky stealth victory is one of them, but the AI will never be as good at stopping you.

And yeah, Artifical Planet needs reworking, the current setup is a proof-of-concept that I've got ideas for.
25. What does Galactive Infrastrucure specifically do? It says, it increases the "supply line range" (underlining by me) but even without it I never ran into any trouble connecting all my planets even if they are far apart from each other... Or does this tech increase the number of lanes a planet will support? Regardless, both aren't really needed and 1,5k RP for it is quite too much....
Galactic Infrastructure is an essential mid to late game tech. I strongly believe you're not playing on enough variety of map layouts, it's been argued that it's a bit overpowered despite it's price, and it also unlocks (currently) the stargate, which is essential, and possibly other things (I'm looking at tying it to damage control techs as well).
26. The detection strength of all sensors is currently shown as 0, the same error is in the Distortion Modular part.
That's weird, I'll have a look at that, where, specifically, do you mean?
27. Does the stealth from the Multi-spectral shield work together with other stealth-generating shipparts? And how great is the stealth granted by this shield? Besides, does stealth play a role in actual combat? And does stealth from hulls, such as asteroid hull in a system with asteroids, stack with shippart-stealth?
Good question, will check, think it does though. Stealth tends to mean you avoid combat, which is kinda the point of it, not sure how it now works with the new combat mechanic if you reveal yoursefl during a fight, need to test that. Asteroid boost does stack, deliberately, with a shippart stealth.
28. Do engines also improve Combat Speed?
Combat Speed does nothing (yet) so irrelevent.
29. Biological Warfare as it is now is kinda useless for a number of reasons. First off, the specific shipparts are in the midpart of the techtree while their counter Genome Bank can and is reached very soon. Although you could bombard that planet until its destroyed, but Genome Bank is way too cheap to be rebuild.
Nevertheless, there's no reason to use Bio-War when you have space superiority because troop ships are amongst the most cheapest ships to build and it is far more beneficial to simple invade and annex a planet than to reduce its population (which, after successful annexion will be your OWN loss!!!)
Agreed, want to redo this entire area, but not immediately.
30. The game doesn't end when you defeated all enemy ships and control all planets....(?)
True, it doesn't even tell you you've won (yet). Don't want it to end, but do want it to tell you you've won, that's a fairly high priority, I couldn't get my last attempt to work properly (although Experimentor victory does now,t hat bit worked), so 2 out of 3 victory conditions now tell you you've won, which is an improvement.
31. Once you research Singularity of Trancendence the game will tell you that you win but what the heck, still the game goes on... (??) lol
Yup, that's deliberate, lots of 4x games let you carry on to 'complete' everything, I like this.
32. I wonder if the Interstellar Lighthouse (and other stuff like Distortion Modular) are even positively contributing to your own game. The stealth reduction of your own planets or ships could mean that the enemy will be enabled to see them and subsequently, send ships to them. And just to get +10 starlane speed. Furthermore I wonder if a ship has to halt directly unto a system to receive this speed-boonus? What if it only passes near-by? For example, in one game I was building Asteroid Ships in the back corner of my empire and had to send these through 5-6 systems to the frontline, and did built a lighthouse on each of these systems in hope to speed things up, but besides the first Lighthouse at the Asteroid system I can't say if it did work....
Strategic choices, and yes, the speed boost does work over time, but the display is a bit poor, currently (same as for the Intersteller Logistics tech boost)
33. Planetary Starlane Drive tells you to have a Lighthouse within 200 uu.... How much of a distance is this and how can we make that visible on the map?
There's a slider option to display this in Options, but I would love it if the circle did display, someone was workign on this awhileback. I, um, put the lighthouse on the planet with the drive, that works...
34. I wasn't able to terraform to good/ gaia transform planets with Exobots, why is this so?
Exobots have no Good environmental preference. Simples.
35. The AI consequently builds exobot colony origins even though he has already established an exobot colony and they could simply build a colony ship there (which is cheaper). Furthermore, he also builds this colony origin even though there is no place to go for the exobots (everything colonized). I would say he is obsessed with those bots^^
I agree, but Dilvish doesn't think it's as big an issue.
36. Concerning the order of introducing new hulls, I'd suggest puting those that have more external slots (for making warships) in the mid-section of the branch while having those with less external but more internal (for scouts, or light raiders) to its beginning. For example, I usually only research Organic Hull for fighters, and its follow up Contrived Symbiosis for 8 troop invaders and you're set.
Feel free to contribute to the threads on this, I've been putting a lot of work in on this but I can assure you you're missing out not playing around with all the organic hulls, especially with the most recent changes I made. Stealthy stealthy warfleets that can see for miles are great fun.
37. It would be nice to know if a ship is repaired to its maximal structure so you don't have to manually backcheck the fleets ships.
There are lots of things that would be nice, in what context specifically? could probably conde a sitrept into Orbital Drydock, but there's so much going on with ships each turn, each potential notification is more lag.
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Re: General feedback, some criticism and questions :)

#6 Post by Kassiopeija »

mileser wrote:Which version are you using?
Hey^^ 7222 is the number it's showing me
mileser wrote:Despite this, they have done a phenomenal job - impressive really and it is multi-platform. I don't see any other game project on Source-Forge or elsewhere that has such an active development team. They also listen to feedback, so do expect responses from the programming team. If you have any programming experiences, you can even join in... :)
Yep I like it too. These kinds of games aren't developed today anymore (if we forget about GalCiv3^^) so even more important to give an honest feedback. Sorry, I can't program unless Schneider BASIC would suffice^^ (that was 20 years ago on a CPC 6128 lol) but I'd like to mod the game if that is even possible. IMO rearranging the techtree, increasing/decreasing RP/PP for certain structures & techs would suffice to balance the game to be less militaristic and shift the focus more to a gameplay where you have to be really effective in colonizing (which also implies, that, if the game would generate a "bad" map for you, you could find yourself in trouble)

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Re: General feedback, some criticism and questions :)

#7 Post by Kassiopeija »

Dilvish wrote:I'll guess then that you have probably not played many games with low planet density and low starlanes, particularly with irregular or cluster galaxy shapes. Not every building/techs/etc. is intended to be required across all galaxy setup options or in every game.
Actually I just played a game tonight with 90 systems 9 AI irregular low everything young galaxy as Eggassem and finished in approx 9 hours. I really don't know what this building is intended for - the only times when my supply lines are dis-connected is when enemy ships are in between them. Otherwise I can pump my whole PP into a single system where Asteroid Ships are build. Additionally, I only build 1 Solar Orbital Generator at a Blue Star at the other side of the galaxy and only one Industrial Center somewhere in between, and I always got their boni systemwide (unless enemies were present)

I consistently queck the tooltips how the planetary PP is calculated and these buildings were always there, furthermore once the question mark appears I examine the game, and always found enemy ships cutting planetary supply away.

Could you specify an example where a Space Elevator has to be present? Because I never found myself in the situation where a planet won't support any lanes at all (Supply=0). Most have 2 supply which is enough to receive & send supply (passthrough), while border planets would require only 1 supply in order to send.

I had a few systems with 6 or 7 lanes but I don't require them to supprt 7 supply, because I'm not going to send their supply in 7 different directions^^

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Re: General feedback, some criticism and questions :)

#8 Post by Kassiopeija »

MatGB wrote: Good good, welcome &c, but a scan through of your whole posts makes it look to me as if you're using the most recent stable release, 0.4.3, and a lot of the stuff you're commenting on is fixed in the most recent Test release (0.4.3+), we're discussing moving to 0.4.4 soon but there are a few things to finish off I believe, in the meantime current Test build is stable and rather good.
The game tells me v0.4.3+ [SVN 7222] MSVC 2010
MatGB wrote: Agree and disagree, I find it fairly easy to win, but challenge myself by completely changing settings regularly. If you really think you're that good, try playing Egassem on a Low Planets, Low Starlanes large map with one AI per 40-50 systems. You'll, probably, still eventually win, but it'll be a LOT harder ;-)
Allright, I'm gonna give it a try^^. How do you set the map to large? Actually I've looked for that so that I could create a map where starlanes are really long and I would be drastically handicapped by it, so I would have to focus on getting range via outposts, and also, had more time developing the own empire without the possibility to make war very soon...
And I don't think I'm a good player^^ I just like TBS, or maybe got lucky^^
MatGB wrote: Decoys are something the AI builds on lower challenge settings as they're moderately useful in combat as they absorb shots. I never use them, they're a waste of time and they increase Fleet Upkeep far too much for my tastes, but they're a strategic option. They're just not a good strategic option, hence the not-very-good AIs use them but the maniacal ones don't.
I've been giving them some more thought. In a system with several planets you can colonize only one, then let this planet build a few Space Invaders (an Base Hull with a single Troop Mod for a total of 6PP which can produced in a single turn) and then you wait until the AI colonizes a system and then you invade. It's kinda unbalanced because 5 space invaders is all you need which cost ~30PP while colony ships are 200-600 depending on the stage of the game.
MatGB wrote: That's a new change deliberately introduced by me, Symbiotic Hull did require the Chamber, but the better hull would be available by the time it was built, I decided game balance wise that it was more balanced to have the tech unlock a basic hull that can be built immediately and a building for the later hulls.
I see the logic in it^^ but it might cause the AI to build buildings which he probably might not even put to use (if he doesn't research the following tech which would unlock the hull)
Then again it's kinda annyoing to research something and still can't use it because of missing buildings. The Rock Armour Plating springs to mind, which requires some Asteroid Processor which, with 500 PP, is pretty expensive to build early on.... Meh...donno...
Then again there might be a problem with Xenoarchaelogy and discovery from ancient ruins. Let's say you get a hulltech from it which doesn't include the appropriate shipyardupgrade it might be (initially) useless....
MatGB wrote:11. Some organic hulls need their growth time reduced. After 125 turns the game will either be won or the ship will be seriously outdated thus near-useless while your new heavy ships do severely lack hitpoints. Although the concept of hulls that grow (and are therefore very cheap to produce) is quite nice :)
That is, I thought, fixed in Trunk as, basically, I agree with you, the smaller hulls grow at 0.2 per turn, the larger hulls now grow by 0.5 per turn making the growth finish over far fewer turns. If I missed one or (more likely) forgot to change the write up let me know.[/quote]
I think I had the Protoplasmic Hull in mind when I wrote that. I don't understand the concept of this hull. It's kinda not really ment to be a Fighter but rather a Scout or a Troopship (its a pretty formidable troopship) but these 2 ships don't rely on structure at all so the "grow 25 structure over 125 turns (!)" is irrelevant.
Now if I were to use this hull for a Fighter (in order to put these additional +25 str to good use), and if I compare it with the Organic Hull pre which is commonly used for Fighters:
The Protoplasmic Hull only has 2 external slots, so you'll have to fit in 1 armour and 1 weapon under all circumstances. The Organic Hull can have 2 armor and will therefore initally have way higher structure. Now if the Protoplasmic Hull would grow these 25 structure over 50 turns there would be some sort of reasonable trade-off: You either get a Fighter already with nearly maximal structure, or you wait 50 turns and then get a Fighter with increased structure and lower PP. (+added boni from the hull & internal slots). But to have to wait 125 turns that's just way too long....

MatGB wrote: Sort of agree, that's a Scripting and Balancing issue but was a far lower priority than the big issue with certain hull lines, and it's an ongoing issue, general balance overall has been something I've been putting a lot of effort but this isn't my innediate next project—it could be yours if you like ;-)
Just took a look in the games folder opening the various txt files notepad++ I think that might be possible, although I don't wanna tinker with the game when there are still mechanics I don't seem to grasp (like Space Elevators^^)...
MatGB wrote: Planets I agree with you on, more below, but Stargates?

I don't think you're playing on big enough maps, or have encountered Experimentor issues fully. I use aTransformer based stargate network in virtually every game, if I haven't got it up and running by turn 150ish then I get worried, absolutely need it by turn 200.

But yeah, some of the later game techs and other cool things need reqorking, as does costs of planets/development over warmongering.
The interesting thing about games like this is that you can develop alternate strategies and still be equally successful. I never build a single Stargate or Transformer, at least, not while enemies were still present. To research these will cost you 1620 RP, and bring you amongst 1 supply line range increase nothing else. I donno, there are always more important things I have to research....

Maybe this is because of the Peace issue. But even once I'm set and ready for war I usually clear out my region and post strong fleets at my borders so nobody can enter anymore. That said, I plan beforeahead that I have no single outside border planets but I expand linearily in all directions in order to get internal security, plus I have all time in the world to send my warships from the main shipyard to the frontlines. But maybe I'll give it a try sometimes in a strong research setup.
MatGB wrote: A large heavy battleship benefits massively from shields and the costs are about right.
I understand the correlation between shields & structure, but with the risk of non-functioning shields I rather tend to design even large/huge hulls as cheap as possible. Because that will net more ships who do hold more firepower (which will decimate the enemy more quickly) and offer more structure+ships (so a ship isn't picked that often as target) so basically this concept offers both defensive & offensive advantages whereas the "use shields" design will lack firepower.
However, a lot of factors wigh in here, esp. shield strength vs enemy weapon strength etc
MatGB wrote: It's 600 total without a telepathic species, 100 with it. There are a few other advantages, and I'd like to script more, but currently, yes, it does work, at least for me, and if it doesn't there's a bug.
:))))))) Sorry my bad I've been thinking it would *generally* reduce techcosts of all techs not just this one^^^^^^^^.
MatGB wrote: One of the problems the game did have was there was only one real way worth going to victory wise. This is something I'd like to change, and a sneaky stealth victory is one of them, but the AI will never be as good at stopping you.

And yeah, Artifical Planet needs reworking, the current setup is a proof-of-concept that I've got ideas for.
I see. You can do a lot of funny stuff in the techtree but if the AI can't utilize them, these things will make it even more difficult for the game to be a challenge once the human player realizes his advantage. That's one of the reasons I've giving up moding GalCiv TotA because lots of AI behaviour is hardcoded and even if you make him research stuff by increasing the importance [AI value] tags he has something that could be quite strong, but without utiilizing it, the research was nothing but a loss/waste.

Did you ever think about introducing a difficulty setting which could increase specific values (for the AI only) such as, for example, 10%/20%/30% more target population etc?
MatGB wrote: Galactic Infrastructure is an essential mid to late game tech. I strongly believe you're not playing on enough variety of map layouts, it's been argued that it's a bit overpowered despite it's price, and it also unlocks (currently) the stargate, which is essential, and possibly other things (I'm looking at tying it to damage control techs as well).
One thing I fear is that I have to abandon a game because of lag, at around 1000 ships this will be the case. In a smaller setup I can more easily control this by simply destroying all these Decoys etc... but you're right and I'm going to increase the setup.

But still I don't understand what this does, or, why it should be necessary. I mean I start out with very little outposts, which might be far apart, but still the supply lines are connected. Once the game progresses I continuously annex adjacent systems and/or invest unneeded PP into outposts/colonies so my supply lines/range/whatever tend to become increasingly better...meh
26. The detection strength of all sensors is currently shown as 0, the same error is in the Distortion Modular part.
MatGB wrote: That's weird, I'll have a look at that, where, specifically, do you mean?
Under "Designs", if you click onto such a module it will show some infos to that piece like:
Short range detection.
Detection Strength: 0
Can mount in: external slot

The same error occurs with all shields, all dampening fields and all engines.
MatGB wrote: Good question, will check, think it does though. Stealth tends to mean you avoid combat, which is kinda the point of it, not sure how it now works with the new combat mechanic if you reveal yoursefl during a fight, need to test that. Asteroid boost does stack, deliberately, with a shippart stealth.
Allright, thanks :)
MatGB wrote: There are lots of things that would be nice, in what context specifically? could probably conde a sitrept into Orbital Drydock, but there's so much going on with ships each turn, each potential notification is more lag.
Maybe in the SitRep window once a damaged fleet arrives at a Drydock you get the message there ShipXYZ at X has been repaired, but here it would be nice to know if these ships are fully repaired (so you move them back into combat) or not (in which case you leave them at the drydock). Maybe just an astericks after the shipname as an indicator of full HP.
As it is now you've got to select the fleet(s) then scroll down and manually check each ship...

Anyway Mat,, thanks for the extensive reply.
Cheers^^

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Re: General feedback, some criticism and questions :)

#9 Post by mileser »

Kassiopeija wrote:
Dilvish wrote:I'll guess then that you have probably not played many games with low planet density and low starlanes, particularly with irregular or cluster galaxy shapes. Not every building/techs/etc. is intended to be required across all galaxy setup options or in every game.
Actually I just played a game tonight with 90 systems 9 AI irregular low everything young galaxy as Eggassem and finished in approx 9 hours. I really don't know what this building is intended for - the only times when my supply lines are dis-connected is when enemy ships are in between them. Otherwise I can pump my whole PP into a single system where Asteroid Ships are build. Additionally, I only build 1 Solar Orbital Generator at a Blue Star at the other side of the galaxy and only one Industrial Center somewhere in between, and I always got their boni systemwide (unless enemies were present)

I had a few systems with 6 or 7 lanes but I don't require them to supprt 7 supply, because I'm not going to send their supply in 7 different directions^^
Kassiopeija wrote:
mileser wrote:Which version are you using?
Hey^^ 7222 is the number it's showing me
mileser wrote:Despite this, they have done a phenomenal job - impressive really and it is multi-platform. I don't see any other game project on Source-Forge or elsewhere that has such an active development team. They also listen to feedback, so do expect responses from the programming team. If you have any programming experiences, you can even join in... :)
Yep I like it too. These kinds of games aren't developed today anymore (if we forget about GalCiv3^^) so even more important to give an honest feedback. Sorry, I can't program unless Schneider BASIC would suffice^^ (that was 20 years ago on a CPC 6128 lol) but I'd like to mod the game if that is even possible. IMO rearranging the techtree, increasing/decreasing RP/PP for certain structures & techs would suffice to balance the game to be less militaristic and shift the focus more to a gameplay where you have to be really effective in colonizing (which also implies, that, if the game would generate a "bad" map for you, you could find yourself in trouble)
Yeah, you had a lot of good feedback. Much of it I agreed with, unless I already had my own answers.

Here are a very small sample of my thoughts.

My last game I played 450 star systems. Unfortunately I was a bit too far from where the Experimenters showed up. By the time I got to where they were at ( just shy of turn 400), the game was lagging way too much, or rather the production queue was way too laggy. I guess a lot of work still needs to be done on optimization. I haven't looked at the actual source code, just the user modifiable content. I could have won the game with technology, but I always hate winning that way, so I never research that last Tech. I do feel the game needs a lot more technologies because I seem to always have nearly every tech researched, except for those I've avoided. Of course, perhaps more gradations of tech depending on how many starsystems are played. But that seems overly complicated, so I don't know.

I've changed a couple of things for the game myself.

1st, I edit the planet overlay file rift.png because when it applies, the visual affect really annoys me - it just looks so wrong to me. I open the file and then I just select all and delete and so it's actually doesn't alter the appearance of planets.

A 2nd thing I've done to help spread AI homeworlds out is to change the minimum distance and minimum # of starlane jumps between homeworlds in the universe generation files, the actual numbers depending on how many star systems I'm playing with. My last game of 450 star systems, I set minimum distance at 400 uu and 5 minimum jumps. I hated playing games and all the AIs end up in the same quadrant and the rest of the galaxy is empty except for all those roaming monsters. (BTW, ya need pirates. :evil: )

I definitely use the Transformer building to use as a stargate (or other things.) It's much cheaper than the stargate building which probably should be removed. I actually don't use many. I have transformers at my warship/troop ship production facility, and my colony construction facility. The other ends of transformers are near the front lines.

As for some of the buildings, you only need 1 for the entire empire. I read a thread where they've discussed code that will remove from the list of buildings, but then again, if the empire gets cut in half, then one half will lose the benefits of the building.
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Re: General feedback, some criticism and questions :)

#10 Post by Dilvish »

Kassiopeija wrote:Actually I just played a game tonight with 90 systems 9 AI irregular low everything young galaxy as Eggassem
Egassem have Great Supply (+2) so of course you'll have far less supply issues starting out with them.
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Re: General feedback, some criticism and questions :)

#11 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Regarding issues of it being too easy to invade, and biological warfare having no point...

Some species don't like having other species nearby / in the same empire. Capturing a planet with another species on it could have consequences as a result.

In future, it's planned that species and planets might be unhappy and dislike empires that invade them / their planets / any planets / native planets. It will hopefully be useful to convince planets to join your empire, rather than just invading and taking them by force.

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Re: General feedback, some criticism and questions :)

#12 Post by Kassiopeija »

MatGB wrote: try playing Egassem on a Low Planets, Low Starlanes large map with one AI per 40-50 systems. You'll, probably, still eventually win, but it'll be a LOT harder ;-)
just played that setup and won on turn 119. the enemy was also Egassem and locked far away in a distant corner with nothing else to colonize. he could have build a few outposts in order to reach other systems but would have lost anyway because the setup for me was fantastic:

there was a Scylior planet just 4 systems away which I rushstormed and hitherto used them to colonize 5 planets and made the research which Egassem usually lack. didn't even have to build Fighters, the one you get from the start did suffice, 4 basic troop ships... and I would have know the bad circumstances of the AI I could have already stopped at that.
But then again there's been a Mu Ursh planet in the near vicinity which were also conquered ASAP - these I used as pilots, and could colonize all planets in reach....

See, you've created a race (Egassem) who trade RP vs PP, ie. they excell in quantity but lack quality, they can't colonize that much but in turn their soldiering makes their world hard to take. However, being able to have these 2 natives from turn 15-30 totally destroyed that concept^^ that's why I'm suggesting making invasion less easy. the natives didn't even put up a fight... there should be some initial protection for them, so you'd initially had to deal solely with the ups & downs of your chosen race


But I understand why you did propose such a setup^^ if I would have been in place of the AI that map would have surely been lost...^^

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Re: General feedback, some criticism and questions :)

#13 Post by MatGB »

My general default setting for a game is 350 systems, low planets, medium everything else, 7 AIs. That makes for an interesting and variable game, it's big enough I've space to explore but not so big the game gets laggy.

I try to keep the total number of ships I own below 200 as that causes lag, and low planets keeps the number of population centres I own below 150 (which also causes lag).

There are so many different ways to play this game, and I like the explore aspect as much as the conquest aspect (the new Python Test layout in the most recent Trunk is nice as well but I've only played a few games with that and I'm away from home this week).

Re Space Elevator, on a large map with low planets or low starlanes (large in the game is generally over 200 systems) you can get fairly big areas with nothing worth populating, at which point elevators and interstellar logistics can become essential.

Also, if you colonis a Huge planet, the more recently introduced -2 supply can be counteracted by the Elevator. As you've observed, it's far more efficient, currently, to invade other planets than it is to colonise your own, I like anything that reduces my need to colonise, and the main point of colonies is to expand supply.

I have had areas of maps where even with both an elevator, logistics focus, good supply and a few tech bonuses the AI was still out of reach for troop ships except with excess fuel added, that can be Not Fun at times, but I've had other games where a single elevator was pointless.

On a dense setting with lots of starlanes, it'll be pointless, that's fine.

(and I'd forgotten we gave Egassem good supply, it's close to their only advantage, relatively new, and the AI isn't good enough with them to do well, AI always seems to do best with Laenfa and Cray, with Chato coming up next depending on galaxy age)
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