Concentration Camps Skyrockets Production (intended?)

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rake-nopo
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Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:43 pm

Concentration Camps Skyrockets Production (intended?)

#1 Post by rake-nopo »

First time Playing Trith. Getting worried seeing my pops dwindles because of Xenophobia, i tried building Concentration Camps on other species' planets. Kinda shocked after i clicked end turn my production instantly Skyrockets from 20something to 90something(i thought it's going to be incremental just like normal industry caps). While it's indeed reducing a planet pop by 3 per turn it's still OP as hell IMO, keep invading other planets and keep building it, when population dwindles i can just scrap it and wait for the pop to getting large again, build again, rinse and repeat. The Xenopobhic penalty instantly became no-issue, my stormtroopers easily blitzing planets by planets, sending every inferior non-trith to Auschwitz, since there's no Russian Winter to face when you're in space... ='))

Is it intended, glitch, or unresolved balance issue? :p

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MatGB
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Re: Concentration Camps Skyrockets Production (intended?)

#2 Post by MatGB »

Intended. Whether it's balanced or not still has yet to be determined, note that scrapping them doesn't end the effect,, I've had planets die off from Camp Remnants/Pall Of Death many many turns after I conquered them and liberated them from their nasty nasty Trith oppressors.

Trith get hurt badly by their xenophobia, this can balance them but it's tricky to play, when using them in this way I've found them still powerful, but not as powerful as, say, Chato or Gysache with an early Hhohh or Mu Ursh conquest.

Scrap a couple camps at the same time, see how long it takes for a) the population to stop dying off and b) the population to start recovering, it is random but it's rarely immediate (and high population worlds aren't that common until the AIs get powerful enough to fight you anyway).
Mat Bowles

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rake-nopo
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Re: Concentration Camps Skyrockets Production (intended?)

#3 Post by rake-nopo »

well nice to hear that :P

i noticed that though, some of my worlds indeed are dead, some of them purposely so.

maybe i just get lucky that most of the camp remnants rarely lasts that long, usually i scrapped it when pop goes below 10

oh and i played the latest release(0.4.4 RC), used the default settings, got some >10 pop natives around my home planet, it really helps with startup. Maybe if i used low natives things can go another way

still, it feels really OP(vs AI at least), easily steamroll'd enemy systems, always go straight to their capital then proceed from there. Got massive research and prod lead. I don't know how will it goes for MP though, never played MP before.

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Dilvish
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Re: Concentration Camps Skyrockets Production (intended?)

#4 Post by Dilvish »

rake-nopo wrote:maybe i just get lucky that most of the camp remnants rarely lasts that long, usually i scrapped it when pop goes below 10
If you wait that long then you have about a 50/50 chance of the planet dying, so yes, it does sound like you've been lucky. Even if you scrap the Camp at pop 20 there is about a 1/5 chance of the planet still dying off. Also keep in mind that if pop gets down to near or under 1.0, it takes a really long time to recover.

Still, the current odds of Pall clearing are a work in progress. If the Camps are still OP, the per-turn chance of Pall of Death going away could be reduced.
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mem359
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Re: Concentration Camps Skyrockets Production (intended?)

#5 Post by mem359 »

Up to now, I have never used CC, instead using Evacuate to get rid of Xenophobic races (or Raaggh on computonium moon specials). Now that I've tried it, I'll use CC (until it gets nerfed).

Let's say that I've just conquered the Trith home world, so over 20 population to start, and the meters are at zero.

With Evacuate, I get -2 pop, and Industry/Research bars are at zero or one (and stay that way).
With CC, I get -3 pop, and within two turns, Industry goes from 0 to 90+.

When the population gets cleared, the "Pall of Death" vanishes the turn after, making it easy to move in another race.
No fuss, no muss.

I suspect my next game, on high pop planets, I'll build a CC on the first turn after conquering, let production max out, then remove the CC. The "Pall of Death" may limit population for a while, but not spending time building up Industry on newly conquered planets is more than worth it.

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mem359
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Re: Concentration Camps Skyrockets Production (intended?)

#6 Post by mem359 »

A little off-topic, but I just recalled that CC can be built on outposts.
This seems odd, since it doesn't do anything.
They should either be taken off the build list (for outposts), or given a function. (Maybe wipe out the outpost?)

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MatGB
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Re: Concentration Camps Skyrockets Production (intended?)

#7 Post by MatGB »

mem359 wrote:A little off-topic, but I just recalled that CC can be built on outposts.
This seems odd, since it doesn't do anything.
They should either be taken off the build list (for outposts), or given a function. (Maybe wipe out the outpost?)
I concur, and destroying the outpost would be a good thing but I think it'd need a separate building because CCs effectively create outposts when they finish depopulation and you don't always want to abandon the colony completely (supply, etc).

I would definitely like to see some way of abandoning outposts (especially when the AI builds on the philosopher planet), but CC shouldn't be it. On the other hand, a patch to prevent them being built on outposts shouldn't take any time at all, I'll get it done tonight.
Mat Bowles

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Dilvish
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Re: Concentration Camps Skyrockets Production (intended?)

#8 Post by Dilvish »

MatGB wrote:a patch to prevent them being built on outposts shouldn't take any time at all, I'll get it done tonight.
I'm already putting in some other script changes, I'll do that as well. I'm putting it in as a min pop 3 additoin to location:

Code: Select all

        Population low = 3
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MatGB
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Re: Concentration Camps Skyrockets Production (intended?)

#9 Post by MatGB »

Works for me, Evacuation can be used for those oh so necessary destruction of stupid people when using Trith when CCs aren't available. One other thing as you're doing stuff.

If you queue a CC, Evacuation removes itself from the building list, but CC doesn't, if you queue Evacuation it removes itself from the list but CC isn't, for consistency both should prevent the other from being enqueud?
Mat Bowles

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Dilvish
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Re: Concentration Camps Skyrockets Production (intended?)

#10 Post by Dilvish »

MatGB wrote:If you queue a CC, Evacuation removes itself from the building list, but CC doesn't, if you queue Evacuation it removes itself from the list but CC isn't, for consistency both should prevent the other from being enqueud?
Hmm, I don't exactly remember the thinking, but I suspect I was viewing it as "Camp Trumps Evac". Either approach has some merits it seems to me, I'm not strongly wedded to either.

It does remind me that I think we're in need of an editing pass taking advantage of the new(ish) EnqueueLocation condition I believe Geoff enabled a little while back, such as for ensuring that once you've queued up one GasGiantGenerator you can't forget and queue up another on the same planet.
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