Ok, this is going to be one excessively lengthy post, but I beg your patience to read the entire ordeal. I think we need to start a discussion what we want "Stealth" in FO to be, on a very fundamental level (hence the topic title).
The reason why I think this discussion is necessary is because there has been a lot of ideas thrown around, particularly how to make stealth a viable strategy ("Stealth as a Strategy"), stealthy empires, etc. To the point where PRs have been proposed which try to implement bits and pieces of stealth game mechanics that go beyond basic detection/stealth stats of ships/planets.
The empire stockpile mechanic which this release cycle is going to be primarily about is the most obvious example (as the entire thing is supposed to make stealthy empires possible), the proposal of stealthy supply lines the other one.
However, I think we got a bit carried away and somewhat ahead of ourselves, because IMO we don't have sufficiently thought through the fundamental concepts of what we want "Stealth" to be, in terms of actual game mechanics. But before we start to even get to some refined design of these game mechanics (not to speak of proposing actual implementations!), we need to decide what we basically
want.
And before some of you object, no, I don't consider terms like "stealth as a strategy" or "stealthy empires" by themselves sufficiently precise. These are just vague ideas - certainly interesting, but not really thought through. At least that's my impression so far.
So, what I want us to do, before we proceed with designing/implementing stealth related stuff, is to step back and take the time to carefully, thoroughly and extensively consider, discuss and finally decide on where we want to go. Once we've made the necessary decisions on the basics, we can begin to focus on the details.
I'm opening this topic on the "Top Priority Game Design" subforum because, well, we should give this discussion and decision priority (considering this release cycle is about stealth related stuff and all).
After this somewhat lengthy introduction (here I'm excessively verbose again, I guess the day I manage to be brief will be when hell has frozen over

), lets get to the actual topic at hand (so you guys get a better idea what I mean):
When talking about "Stealth", there are several possibilities what this concept can encompass when considered as a game mechanic:
a) In it's most basic form it would just be about making ships harder or even impossible to detect, so you can hide your movements from your opponents as much as possible, or avoid detection completely. Most space 4X games I know (which have "Stealth" as a game element) implement this in some way (details vary of course). Often referred to as "cloaking".
b) A variation of the above would be to extend the idea of "Stealth" to other game objects/elements/assets: installations/buildings on planets, populations on planets, maybe large space objects like starbases if the game has such, etc. This introduces the concept of not only hiding your movements, but also other assets (or at least some of them) from your opponents. Typically you need quite advanced tech to do so.
c) The next step would further extend that to entire planets or even stars/star systems. Usually requiring very advanced late game tech, or only achievable by discovering/getting access to some sort of ancient alien/precurser assets (typical example "Ancient Ruins"

), or reserved to some ancient precursor aliens lurking in some reclusive/hidden spot on the map (Experimentors anyone?

). The idea is that it becomes possible to hide entire "bases of operation" (be it some sinister precursors or player forces), which can support large scale operations from these hidden spots.
d) Finally, extend the idea to encompass entire empires, which is what in our discussion has been referred to as "stealthy empires". For that to work, it has to be possible to hide/stealth/cloak
everything: ships, planets, supply, absolutely everything an empire needs to function. If this should be possible for player empires (not only for e.g. an entire cloaked Experimentor empire), another important thing is that the means to achieve this must be available right from game start, not just as extremely advanced end game tech.
This is only a very basic summary of what one can come up with. Of course there are all kind of variations and combinations of the above concepts, but I think you get the idea. What FO currently has is probably something between options b and c.
Now, whatever option/variation or combination thereof you want to have in your game, has profound implications and consequences for the design and implementation of the actual game mechanics and all the details, especially when it comes to balancing all the related elements so you end up with something that is actually playable.
If we just go for option a, things will be comparatively simple. We need to decide if we just want to make detection harder, so the advance notice an enemy gets of your movements gets cut short (so they learn of our big invasion only when our forces arrive at their systems). Or if we want to actually make it possible for cloaked ships to slip past enemy lines and penetrate into enemy territory undetected.
In the first case we only need to come up with a mechanic that allows for a detection/stealth "race", so to speak. More advanced stealth tech means you can get closer to the enemy before you get detected, more advanced detection tech counters that. The second case is already more complex, as allowing sufficiently stealthed ships to avoid detection completely means we need to introduce some elements that counter the massive advantage you get if you can slip your forces behind enemy lines and wreak havoc in unprotected systems (e.g. by making sure that stealthed ships are significantly weaker in combat etc.). Balancing all related elements will also become more complicated/difficult in the second case.
The consequences when going for option d are vastly different, especially if we want to make stealthed player empires possible. The most obvious and challenging implication already mentioned: we'd need to make the means to achieve this available at game start. If a player needs late game tech to hide his empire, the whole thing is probably pointless (for obvious reasons).
That however comes close to opening Pandora's box, because that creates a lot of issues which need to be addressed, OTOH to counter the very obvious, extrememly powerful advantages a hidden empire has, OTOH to give the player of such an empire a reasonable chance to hold onto their advantage in stealth tech/ability, otherwise they could be screwed too easily, and then playing a stealthy empire wouldn't be much fun. Which in turn would make the feature pointless again.
I hope you can see where this is going at this point.
Now, don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't
like the idea of stealthy empires and now try to make a case against that idea. Actually, what I'd
like would be the whole thing, everything options a to d have to offer. That would be really cool!
However, please consider our current implementation of detection and stealth: it is kind of broken and apparently far from easy to come up with something that would make even option a really playable. The challenge being to come up with something that won't create excessive micromanagement (the original simple "range at which you can detect an object" = "your detection stat" - "the object's stealth stat" approach we had a long time ago), but also won't be a blunt all-or-nothing thing (our current approach, where you either totally defeat an enemies stealth or not at all, the first making stealth pointless, the second making it extremely overpowered).
And now compound that by the complexities and challenges introduced when allowing for entire empires to be hidden, and this right from turn 1. Frankly, that's the point where I get up and start looking for some Aspirin.
What I want all of you (that is, all of you who want to participate in this decision of course

) is to give your opinion and ideas what you think we should aim for,
and to argue your case. Meaning, if you e.g. want to make a case for option d, please also outline how you want to address the particular challenges/issues which come with that approach.
At the end of this discussion we need to come to a decision (ideally by reaching a general consensus), which will be the basis for all further design discussions and implementations. Which means all work on stealth related stuff should be put on hold until we make that decision (to avoid wasting time and effort on things that might have to be discarded in the end).
And once we have made that decision, we should really stick to it. Of course, if somewhere down the road we realize that what we want to do doesn't work, or someone comes up with a really ingenious, awesome idea how something we didn't think possible might be doable after all, we'll have to/can revise our decision, but
only in such cases.
Ok, this is my proposal. Personally I lean toward option c (or something like that), not because I don't like option d, but because I don't have any idea how to make that work (without creating something that is either pointless, or extremely overpowered, or so insanely complicated that it blows our design philosophy to pieces). Option c however might be possible. But I don't want to go into detail right now, as I've written more than enough at this point, and let others present their thoughts first.
So, my friends, it's your turn. Make your cases!
