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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:39 am 
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Oberlus wrote:
Suggestion: make absolute output value coincide with the maximum stockpiling value. I mean, if you produce 100 PPs per turn and has 60% stockpiling efficiency, maximum stockpiling value is 60 PPs, so you could draw up to 60 PPs that turn.
That's a possible approach. However, the numbers are way, way too high in that case. 50% efficiency would be the absolut max IMO, and even that max should be only achievable by extremely expensive end game tech.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:51 pm 
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MatGB wrote:
Tech(s) to increase extraction: linked to stealth and fuel/supply techs, at least one of which is called "Smugglers" and is the only one that can work for blockaded systems.
I like that. Maybe one single tech for that wouldn't allow an easy balance during early/mid/late game for that strategy but that'd be easy to fix by having "Smuggler I/II/III".

Vezzra wrote:
Oberlus wrote:
Suggestion: make absolute output value coincide with the maximum stockpiling value. I mean, if you produce 100 PPs per turn and has 60% stockpiling efficiency, maximum stockpiling value is 60 PPs, so you could draw up to 60 PPs that turn.
That's a possible approach. However, the numbers are way, way too high in that case. 50% efficiency would be the absolut max IMO, and even that max should be only achievable by extremely expensive end game tech.
Agree, more or less. This should be tied to the maximum stockpiling efficiency for which I have not an strong opinion/idea on what should be the maximum.
I think that having used 100% of your empires PPs in one previous turn (or less than that in several turns, of course) to later get back 50% of that won't get you far in the Galaxy compared to the empire that focuses on supply techs and closer expansion instead of IS techs, so that he has a single supply group. But best way to find out if these or those numbers are too strong or weak is to check it out by playing.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:35 pm 
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@Vezzra please try playing a distributed empire.

in which ways would you "abuse" the imperial stockpile? Can you play a game with those overpowered settings and give feedback report in the other thread please?

if we do some kind of scaling with production we probably also need some static offset for the early exp. this means we prbably need effects accounting visible somewhere

note that for laenfa after the latest changed have normal research, so if they go distributed they dont feel the pressure like they did. In single player they are basically unstopable.

the ui for the stockpile is very prominent (thats why i asked for this kind of playtest feedback half a year ago) . if stockpile is going not to be a core feature, it should be more hidden.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:39 pm 
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One additional comment:

I want to agree with Vezzra's sentiment that distributed empires shouldn't become the 'norm'. The idea that research can be distributed but production cannot -- that idea makes sense. Information is communicable, but materials for production need to be smuggled across enemy lines.

In my opinion, we shouldn't think of the stockpile as a tool to create split-apart empires, but as a method to somewhat minimize the negative impact on our empire if it should happen to become divided by an encroaching enemy. As such it isn't a matter of trying to identify situations where we are able to abuse the stockpile to our own advantage. Rather we should see any advantage we are gaining from the stockpile as an added bonus, and identify situations where that advantage is too extreme, if that makes sense.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:47 pm 
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In my experience, it doesn't matter how quickly or large you
can grow your stockpile. Since you can only withdraw a very
small amount from it each turn it is effectively worthless.
At one point I had over 1K in the stockpile, but could only
withdraw 16PP from it each turn. That was with most of the
supply techs and several of those race buildings.
16PP midgame isn't enough to build jack.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:25 pm 
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Attention: lengthy post ahead! ;)

Ophiuchus wrote:
You mention my original supply ships (which would also have been ok). Those had an efficiency of 90% from the start and no extraction limits.
The original supply ships were a completely different mechanic, you can't compare that to the IS. Those supply ships had to be built and then sent to the location they were supposed to provide with PP, which would have taken time and made intercepting them possible. And they only could get to locations connected by starlanes.

These are some pretty severe limitations, more than enough to make it impossible for them to ever replace standard PP distribution along supply connections. Instead of a potential replacement, they were more of a complement mechanic.

None of these limitation apply to the IS mechanic, on the contrary: the IS, as currently implemented, not only has none of the limitations of the original supply ship mechanic, it also effectively circumvents all limitations of normal PP distribution. It does not depend on supply connection (obviously, as that's the idea ;)), you don't even need starlane connection(!), it only takes one turn to transfer PP to any location, it's absolutely impossible to intercept/block that method of PP distribution, and above all it enables you to stockpile PP that might otherwise be lost, which circumvents yet another essential concept: that PP (normally) can't be stockpiled and are supposed to have to be consumed immediately.

Meaning, the IS basically completely disrupts fundamental game concepts across the board, so to speak. To avoid that, we (currently) have the conversion ratio, the extraction limit, we've gated access to/improvement of this feature by techs and buildings, etc., to create sufficient drawbacks/costs/limitations that should ensure the IS doesn't make standard mechanics of PP distribution and usage obsolete or even partially obsolete at some point in a game (which only works if the numbers chosen for the conversion ratio and extraction limit are sufficiently restrictive to achieve that goal of course).

The original supply ship mechanic didn't need those, because it had been sufficiently limited in other ways.
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The old ratio was unusable for any strategy IMHO, even after the first tech. With this I mean any sane player comparing choices would choose a strategy without the imperial stockpile.
It could be ok to use in extreme corner cases.

Maybe I play completely different. But the playtesting feedback of all other players indicated that.
I understand. But that brings us back to the question: what do you/we want to achieve with that mechanic? Judging by the direction the development of this feature has taken (since the original proposal of the Generic Supply Ships), this has continually been moving toward something which makes the normal PP distribution and usage mechanic less relevant, particular regarding expansion, changing how expansion and structuring empires work in FO on a fundamental level.

And, quite frankly, I have strong objections against that development. Whatever we want the IS to be, we must not go there (IMO).

I want to point everyone involve in this discussion to the design thread of the IS feature. We've discussed what the IS should be and what it should not become at length there. There is one particular statement by Geoff I want to quote here, as it quite nicely summarizes the limitations for an IS mechanic:
Geoff the Medio wrote:
I thought I indicated it earlier, but perhaps I didn't: Any PP stockpile mechanism that can circumvent supply connection requirements would definitely need to have a severe penalty to PP sent to it. I'd probably also have a cap to how much PP can be stored. It would also need to be unlocked by tech and/or producing buildings, at least with the earliest available methods for doing so. Perhaps at the start of the game, things generally work as they do now. Then with a mid-game tech, one can unlock buildings that let one send PP to the stockpile, which can be spent anywhere, or perhaps just anywhere connected to one of the buildings. Then later, it could be spent anywhere, even if not connected to a building (but still not added to the stockpile from anywhere). Additional techs (or buildings) would slightly improve the tax for putting into the stockpile, say form 90% to 85% and then 80%, and increase the stockpile capacity. Getting substantially close to not having to worry about supply connections should only be possible, if at all, at the late game, when empires are nearly ascending anyway. Might also consider having a species train related to granting stockpile access, at a relatively basic level.
(Emphasis added by me.)

As far as I am concerned, that is set in stone. If anything, I'd be even more restrictive, and say that "getting substantially close to not having to worry about supply connections" should not be possible at all. Even in late/end game, the IS should be a complement to the normal PP distribution/usage mechanics, not something that could replace it.

Ok, all that said, where to go from here? Whatever the IS should be, it must adhere to the limitations outlined above. However, it also needs to be good for something, open up specific possibilities/choices that need to be viable ones, otherwise the entire feature is completely pointless, and that's certainly not what we want.

Lets start with the proposed main purpose: make stealthy empires possible. The particular aspect of stealthy empires which the IS could potentially address is the supply connection issue. However, looking at he current numbers, that won't work at all. While you can achieve 100% conversion efficiency now, the extraction limit is the prohibiting factor here, even with the increased values. Being able to draw 50 or even 100PP/turn from the stockpile isn't going to accomplish anything if a substantial part of your empire has to rely on the stockpile.

Unfortunately, just cranking up the numbers for the extraction limit to levels where a stealthy empire strategy becomes actually viable will make the IS so powerful that it replaces normal PP distribution/usage. Especially considering that a stealthy empire must be able to achieve those levels quickly enough to survive against other empires once it meets them. I think everyone can see where this goes, and what's the problem with that approach.

Conclusion: high conversion ratio balanced by low extraction limit is useless when it comes to stealthy empires.

The obvious solution, when we need sufficiently high extraction limits, and don't want to make IS overpowered, is to lower the conversion ratio. So, if we want the IS to be the means to address the supply connection problem of stealthy empires, conversion ratio and extraction limit must be somehow balanced. Meaning, taking from the stockpile needs to be happen roughly at the same order of magnitude as putting into the stockpile. All that with numbers sufficiently low so that the IS won't become to powerful again.

Unfortunately, I don't think that's possible. The numbers you need to set the conversion ratio and extraction limit to, so that a stealthy empire is able to compete with "normal" empires, need to be sufficiently high, so that, well, a stealthy empire can at least basically keep up with normal empires. Being stealthy won't help much if your production is only half as efficient (or even worse) than that of your opponents.

But even at that level (50% efficiency) the IS would already be far beyond of just being a complement for normal PP distribution/usage, especially if that level can be reached already in mid game (which would be necessary, otherwise stealthy empires would have to deal with even worse production efficiency for most of the game).

I think at that point you can see where this is going.

The only way I see how we can make the stealthy empire and IS combo work is to introduce a way where the player has to specifically choose the stealthy empire strategy route, which will then give them sufficiently easy access to sufficiently powerful levels for IS conversion ratio and extraction limit (an access that is not otherwise available). For the empire of that player the normal PP distribution/usage mechanic would actually be replaced by the IS mechanic, maybe not completely right from game start, but continually as the game progresses.

To counter-balance the significant strategic advantage thus gained that unique pick needs to come with certain disadvantages for this empire. Be it reduced resource output, more limited colonization options, reduced population, weaker ships, whatever.

The most obvious way to do that would be to introduce a very unique playable species that enables access to techs which give much higher levels of conversion ratio and extraction limit than the standard IS techs that are available to all empires. To counter this substantial advantage, that species could have bad pilots, bad production, bad pop, bad troops, whatever we think is needed to make the whole thing balanced. The added advantage of that approach would be, in order to equip the species even better for the stealthy empire strategy, to give it even more traits that are beneficent for that purpose (good stealth and detection of course, e.g. make it a gas giant only species, etc.).

However, with that approach I see another problem: all this accomplishes only one thing: making the IS useful for stealthy empires, but not for anything else. Which in turn makes having "standard" IS techs available to all empires more or less pointless. The IS mechanic would consequently become a special feature for the specific stealthy empire option only.

And that raises the question if there aren't easier/better/more straightforward ways to address the specific issue stealthy empires have with supply connections and PP distribution, leaving us back at square one: what is the IS good for at all?

Another approach would be to go "back to the roots", so to speak: the original idea of the Generic Supply Ships has been to provide the means to transfer some PP to remote locations that are cut off the rest of the empire.

That purpose can easily be achieved by changing the conversion ratio into a conversion limit: instead of imposing a tax on the PP transferred to the stockpile just limit the amount of PP that can be transferred to the stockpile the same way the amount you can transfer from the stockpile. Make sure that these limits are always only a tiny fraction of the empire's PP output, so that it won't make normal PP distribution irrelevant, and we're good. It would actually even make sense to drop the distinction between conversion limit and extraction limit, but just use the same stat for both and call it "stockpile transfer limit".

That would also solve the problem with poor early conversion efficiency, as there would be no such thing as poor efficiency, as no PP would be wasted. Keeping the transfer limit low enough should be sufficient to ensure the IS stays a complement and not become a replacement for normal PP distribution.

Of course, with that approach the IS isn't much good for a stealthy empire anymore, but it should serve every purpose the original Generic Supply Ships had been designed for just as well, if not better.

Personally I strongly prefer the latter option. It's the closest to the original Generic Supply Ship idea, it is straightforward, makes the IS mechanic simpler, also easier to balance, and should be of some value in certain situations.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:34 pm 
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Ophiuchus wrote:
@Vezzra please try playing a distributed empire.
Well, I already did, with the old numbers though.
Quote:
in which ways would you "abuse" the imperial stockpile?
With the current numbers you can't "abuse" the stockpile, as it's not over- but underpowered. Even if the conversion ratio might be too high, the low extraction limit is the big issue here (which is my experience and apparently that of others, judging by some of the reports given).

However, as I tried to argue in my above post, you can't fix that by just increasing the extraction limit, as that would turn the IS into something that makes standard PP distribution less relevant, instead of just complementing it.

The underlying issue is, if you intend the IS as a means to make "distributed" empires possible/viable, you're faced with a problem: which tangible advantages does a "distributed" empire offer over a "standard" one (besides being nice for people who prefer a different playstyle)? Because the IS needs to come with sufficient restrictions/limitations/costs so that it won't replace normal PP distribution. A distributed empire however needs to rely on the IS for PP distribution, which puts it at a significant disadvantage against empires which operate the "normal" way.

If being "distributed" doesn't offer sufficient tangible advantages, that strategy can't be a viable option, because of the disadvantages suffered by having to rely on the IS. Which is exactly what the playtesting feedback so far is about: the possibilities the IS opens up don't offer sufficient tangible advantages, therefore players have a hard time figuring out a viable use for the IS.

Of course you can try to fix that by cranking numbers for conversion ratio and extraction limit up until the distributed empire strategy works. However, if being distributed doesn't offer substantial tangible advantages by itself, you effectively have to make the IS more or less equally efficient as normal PP distribution. Which results in the IS replacing normal PP distribution, which is not what we want.

The problem we've run into at this point is that we can't make a distributed empire strategy possible just because that appeals to a playstyle some people would prefer, especially if that requires introduction of game mechanics/elements that alter how other, essential game mechanis work in a way we don't want to. The distributed empire strategy has to offer distinct, substantial, tangible advantages.

The question is: what are those advantages, or what could such advantages be? Anyone any ideas?

Don't get me wrong: there is nothing wrong with preferring a game where you aren't restricted in expanding your empire the way you are in FO. There are other 4X space games where supply connection/distribution of industrial capacity isn't as relevant and limiting as in FO, and these are fine games. Both approaches are ok and viable, they're just different. For the design of FO the decision has been to limit distribution of industrial/production capacity strictly to supply lines, requiring players to focus their expansion on locations within their supply range, and, if they want to reach further, have to increase that supply range. While we can certainly discuss game mechanics that allow special case exceptions to that rule, they have to stay special case exceptions and not alter that fundamental concept.
Quote:
Can you play a game with those overpowered settings and give feedback report in the other thread please?
Well, if you really want me to, I can try to find time for that, but what for? As pointed out above, I most certainly will come to the same conclusion as all the others: with the current numbers the IS is way underpowered. I don't contest that, I just don't think increasing the numbers even more is the way to go.
Quote:
if we do some kind of scaling with production we probably also need some static offset for the early exp.
Having both techs that offer a fixed increase and ones that offer an increase based on e.g. number of colonies, or production output makes sense and is something I'd also like to see. So, agreed.
Quote:
this means we prbably need effects accounting visible somewhere
Yep, that too sounds reasonable.
Quote:
the ui for the stockpile is very prominent (thats why i asked for this kind of playtest feedback half a year ago) . if stockpile is going not to be a core feature, it should be more hidden.
Yes, also agreed, although I see no problem with keeping it a while for playtesting. Merging the stockpile icon and the stats it displays with the industry icon as a final solution is what I think makes most sense.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:40 pm 
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alleryn wrote:
In my opinion, we shouldn't think of the stockpile as a tool to create split-apart empires, but as a method to somewhat minimize the negative impact on our empire if it should happen to become divided by an encroaching enemy. As such it isn't a matter of trying to identify situations where we are able to abuse the stockpile to our own advantage. Rather we should see any advantage we are gaining from the stockpile as an added bonus, and identify situations where that advantage is too extreme, if that makes sense.
Yes, that makes a lot of sense to me. I agree very much with this angle, and I think my suggestion in my post above about the transfer limit should work very well to achieve exactly that.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:50 pm 
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Combining transfer limit and extraction limit basically are the battery idea, right? So that you spend many turns transferring you can extract a lot and if you dont spend many turns transferring you can extract only a little?

Vezzra wrote:
alleryn wrote:
In my opinion, we shouldn't think of the stockpile as a tool to create split-apart empires, but as a method to somewhat minimize the negative impact on our empire if it should happen to become divided by an encroaching enemy. As such it isn't a matter of trying to identify situations where we are able to abuse the stockpile to our own advantage. Rather we should see any advantage we are gaining from the stockpile as an added bonus, and identify situations where that advantage is too extreme, if that makes sense.
Yes, that makes a lot of sense to me. I agree very much with this angle, and I think my suggestion in my post above about the transfer limit should work very well to achieve exactly that.

If we do not want to make distributed empires possible with the IS I dont really see why we didnt choose the stealthy supply like ovarwa said. That was interruptable with detection at least.
@ovarwa there was a unfinished discussion about this topic http://www.freeorion.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10391
The main complexity there was different empires with different stealth and detection values with different relationships (e.g. allied) and the basic decision if you want to be hidden or disrupt enemies supply lines.
I think that those stealthy supply problems are solvable.

Oberlus wrote:
IS should be a valid tool to make viable a full pacifist, scattered, hidden colonies strategy for early/mid game (e.g. with Laenfa).

This is basically what I want.

Vezzra asked what the basic advantage of a distributed empire is.

The basic resource a distributed empire has in comparison to a sphere-shaped one is reach. How to build one? You basically pressure your expansion to go the long way, outposting and colonizing exceeding your supply range. What does reach mean? It means access to "better" planets, trying to claim faster.
The downside is that you can't reap the many benefits you get in a supply-group because you invest your energy outside of it.

I think the stockpile tech line should enable distributed expansion from almost the start but should be a long-term and ongoing investment. That would mean would something useful out of your research that wont be useful 30 turns later. In the current system this translates to extraction limit upgrades.

Game content interacts with the current IS design and can be used to adjust the balance between :
* bounty planets which work on their own (like computronium moon, ancient ruins); distributed empire has a better chance of claiming them first (problem is claiming means bringing down the defenses and afterwards then you probably have to hide it)
* specials etc which boost your whole supply network provide a great incentive to connect all production systems to it no matter how effective the stockpile is. E.g. black hole generator, growth specials. See also my idea of tying the ship lines to strategic resources
* global effects to the stockpile ratios/limits (e.g. specials, species)
* local effects????? (rather not)
** investing influence for having better smuggling
** -1PP per enemy interceptor in the building system
** enemy supply on the extracting system lowers the extraction limit

We could give the imperial palace some supply-group benefit. This would make your first supply-group "special" in a sense.

How about tuning the stockpile unusable for most species, have some species have a small bonus which makes it more viable and have one "stockpiling" species.

That "stockpiling" species could be the Sly (self-sustaining gas giant dwellers, bad supply (which makes -1 supply on the gas giants), high stealth, good detection, high stockpiling bonus, really bad attack troops, good defense troops, bad pilots, 7PP production malus for all your other species in the same system as a sly planet). The good thing about gas giant dwelling is that you dont have to compete for living space. The bad thing is the uniqueness - acquiring gas dwellers for any empire is probably as important for everyone as acquiring exobots (or another radiation species).
The low supply means you will probably not get any supply-group benefits without capturing natives, so stockpiling must be playable really soon.
Probably this should be a player-only species, as the strategy probably needs to be very different from the normal AI strategy.

I hope I could explain why a distributed strategy could reap benefits. I think it is risky and interesting and should also depend on luck.

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Last edited by Ophiuchus on Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:10 pm 
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I won't quote anything from Vezzra'z posts, but I agree with all the general points and most of the specifics.

Putting the focus on the viability of scattered, stealthy empires, and assuming that stealthy supply chains are not the way to go, maybe the problem is not in the low efficieny of the IS to get PPs from isolated supply groups (or any other way that could replace the supply mechanics and be abused in that sense) but on the chances to get military and expansive proffit off the non-main supply groups. I'm thinking on making easier to have early stealthed ships and easier to colonise into/through enemy space.
If the IS is the mechanic to use, then its low efficiency (e.g. to invest PPs from the main supply group into the colony you are building in an enemies system; it will always be better for your chances to win if you focus on a single supply group so that your colonies are built faster, the snowball grows faster) makes it a rather suboptimal strategy and hence a no go in multiplayer game and only for a challenge against AI. Unless you give it more efficiency from the start and then you are breaking the rule carved in stone and alowing for abusing of the mechanic regardless of strategy.
However, if I can use stealthy colonizers from early on in the game, along with the high planetary stealth that you can get early on with species like Laenfa, I can then expand further and faster, built military army in different supply groups and gather them in a given point past the enemy lines. This extra versatility may pay off for the loss in efficiency when having to use IS.
Currently, you can't have a viable stealth colonizer until several hulls, detection and stealth techs are researched, which can be done fast enough. Maybe a simple solution could be to add a new basic cheap hull (something like "cargo" hull") with two inner slots and one or no extern slot and/or to add a species trait for ship stealth (separate from the planetary stealth) or make planetary stealth bonus also affect ships. That last option would need balance to avoid an overpowered Laenfa with current combat mechanics and its +40 planetary stealth bonus.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:24 am 
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I had another thought:

One difficulty in balancing stockpile + stealthed expansion, and indeed in balancing most aspects of the game, is the variety of settings at the beginning of the game.

The benefits of a distributed stealthy empire are far greater in a game with low planet density and no natives compared to high planet density and many natives.

In the former setup, you only have one good planet type and two (or possibly zero) adequates. This makes the number of colonizable targets in your territory quite low, which makes expansion into dangerous neutral territory or into enemy territory itself much more alluring.

In the latter setup, the player typically has an abundance of planets to choose from, especially once one or more native species are integrated into the empire. With the number of colonizable targets outstripping the industry, there is little or no advantage to expanding outside of where one already posseses a supply network (or to where the supply can easily be extended).

In other words, when one is playing with few natives and low planet density, the stockpile for a stealthy species (laenfa) may feel valuable even with a low Stockpile to PP Conversion Ratio, whereas with more natives and higher density, the stockpile may feel mostly useless/pointless.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:06 am 
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I like alleryns observation that playing style and strategies depend a lot on the galaxy settings.
For me that means its ok if distributed expansion rarely works in the standard settings (maybe only if you choose the right species and by luck your starting position favors that expansion style).

So to rephrase this:
We should balance imperial stockpile in a way that distributed expansion is possible with the standard settings, but only if you choose the right starting species.
Can we agree on this?


So after collecting feedback from round two ("Storage for all!" - effective stockpile, with the expectation that you have a lot more stockpile PP than you can use):
I suggest for round three of the imperial stockpile ("The rise of the stockpiling race"):
* input ratio of 100% from the start
* I'll try to land in the battery mechanism using the transfer (stockpile input) limit.
* Add racial modifiers to the stockpiling; i suggest (GREAT/GOOD/AVERAGE/BAD)_FRONTIER_SKILLS
* Sprinkle the races with BAD_ and GOOD_; either add GREAT_ to laenfa or add a new stockpiling species (Travellers or Sly).
* probably up the research costs and adjust the tech to significantly improve the limits so the GREAT_FRONTIER_SKILLS species can use it for distributed empire. I think i will aim for a pacing of obsoletion in turn 20, turn 50, turn 100, turn 200
If i dont manage to implement the battery in time I need you guys to roleplay/pretend that you dont have so many PP in your stockpile (we are still in prototyping stage). Extraction limit actually still enforces most of the limits of usability.
* add a basic "cargo" hull" with three inner slots and no extern slot and stealth 15 ; i'd add it to the generic supplies tech

@Vezzra what you think? did i address your concerns?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:27 am 
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Ophiuchus wrote:
    * Add racial modifiers to the stockpiling; i suggest (GREAT/GOOD/AVERAGE/BAD)_FRONTIER_SKILLS
How do you envision these working? To be interesting, I suspect it would be good if any species-specific stockpile modifiers applied only to the planet the species is on, and not to any supply-group connected planets with other species. Or more accurately, to PP generated on the planet, and not PP from other planets supply-connected. This would be essential to ensure a player can't just get one planet with a strong-stockpiling species in order to avoid any need to research any supply-boosting techs. Possibly this could be enforce by having each stockpile group have a separate to-stockpile transfer efficiency rating, and then have some special rule or mechanism that ensures that planets with stockpile species aren't connected to any other planets in a supply group. But then things are getting rather complicated, so I'm questioning the viability of the whole premise... What do you have in mind?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:45 pm 
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Geoff the Medio wrote:
Ophiuchus wrote:
    * Add racial modifiers to the stockpiling; i suggest (GREAT/GOOD/AVERAGE/BAD)_FRONTIER_SKILLS
How do you envision these working? To be interesting, I suspect it would be good if any species-specific stockpile modifiers applied only to the planet the species is on, and not to any supply-group connected planets with other species. Or more accurately, to PP generated on the planet, and not PP from other planets supply-connected. This would be essential to ensure a player can't just get one planet with a strong-stockpiling species in order to avoid any need to research any supply-boosting techs. Possibly this could be enforce by having each stockpile group have a separate to-stockpile transfer efficiency rating, and then have some special rule or mechanism that ensures that planets with stockpile species aren't connected to any other planets in a supply group. But then things are getting rather complicated, so I'm questioning the viability of the whole premise... What do you have in mind?

I didnt have too much in mind in this iteration, just the KISS thing, treating it like an empire-wide capacity like computronium moon, taking the best _FRONTIER_SKILLs in the empire to boost the limits.

If we make the balance in a way that researching the techs alone does not open up viable strategies, then as soon you have such a species in your empire you could go the stockpiling route.

Else i would rather go for supply-group based than planet based stockpile input/output (the planet does a "stockpiling service" for all supply connected planets) (take the highest stockpiling bonus in the supply-group). Supply lines are something your enemies can interrupt, so it gets interesting.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:52 pm 
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Ophiuchus wrote:
I didnt have too much in mind in this iteration, just the KISS thing, treating it like an empire-wide capacity like computronium moon, taking the best _FRONTIER_SKILLs in the empire to boost the limits.

If we make the balance in a way that researching the techs alone does not open up viable strategies, then as soon you have such a species in your empire you could go the stockpiling route.

Else i would rather go for supply-group based than planet based stockpile input/output (the planet does a "stockpiling service" for all supply connected planets) (take the highest stockpiling bonus in the supply-group). Supply lines are something your enemies can interrupt, so it gets interesting.
If having a single planet in the empire or in a supply group makes the supply transfer efficiency very high, then that will almost completely remove the use of all supply techs... I think such a species benefit would need to be restricted to a particular planet's production output, or maybe a single system.


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