FreeOrion

Forums for the FreeOrion project
It is currently Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:30 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:00 am 
Offline
Designer and Programmer
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:33 pm
Posts: 2058
Location: Orion
It's most likely that economics like that won't be options, but it is likely that high level strategic options could be determined in part by the government chosen at the start of the game. A dictatorship government might give bonuses to the military that can't be achieved any other way, much like the "warlord" pick in MoO2. Democracy could likewise give some great advantage to diplomacy and trade, and unification might give less effective, but equally unique bonuses to military, diplomacy, and espionage. (This implies that there would be a government type that would give special bonuses to an espionage style of play that I haven't come up with a name for yet.)

This, of course, is just a single "set" of strategic options, analogous to "Expansion vs. Development".

_________________
Warning: Antarans in dimensional portal are closer than they appear.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:41 pm 
Offline
Designer and Programmer
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:33 pm
Posts: 2058
Location: Orion
Just some thoughts related to high level strategic options and the development of the Tech Tree...


Explore:

In the beginning of the game, exploration is not very strategic. You have your scouts, you scout around with them, maybe you build a few more...

In the later game, the choice about how to explore enemy territory should be very interesting in terms of whether to use spies, raise the detection level of nearby outposts, or send in recon ships.

Expand:

This is the first big strategic decision the player has to make. Create colonies further out where you can find a better abundance of planets to choose from and meet new empires sooner, but where they're more vulnerable to attack, or create colonies very near the homeworld, where there won't be as many planets to choose from, and therefore not as many good planets to colonize, but where they can be defended very easily.

The Growth tree currently (in my revisions) reflects the second option very well. Ideally, some other tree (perhaps Construction/Infrastructure/whatever) could reflect the first. The Growth tree focuses on ways to make already existing planets more inhabitable and offers techs such as Terraforming, and other techs to allow the colonization of Poor and Hostile planets. Furthermore, the Growth tree includes outpost modules, which allows the player to get detection and fleet range well beyond any established colonies - perfect for the player who is trying to stay in a confined region of space. The farming techs in Growth also support the strategy of establishing colonies on planets with low max farming.

The tech tree which supports the other option should probably give some techs to increase resource supply range, to allow colonies further out to exchange resources. It could perhaps include techs which are planet type or environment dependant, or give bonuses to planets with certain specials, to encourage the player to expand and look for such planets. The Construction tree, or perhaps a specific branch of it, could perhaps be adapted to fit this role. Also, this method of expansion means that the player is going to meet other races first and be a bit pickier about what planets he's going to colonize, meaning that expansion through conquering will probably become a desirable option sooner.

Exploit:

How to exploit planet resources and other empires is determined primarily by how the player chose to expand, and how he plans to exterminate.

Exterminate:

There is the sole-survivor victory, which could probably be achieved through either military means or through espionage. There is also the technological victory, which is presumably achieved through the Singularity of Transcendence tech. Espionage players will focus on the economics tree, tech players will focus on the Learning tree and military players will focus on the Production and Ships trees.

A further question for Espionage and Military is whether to be diplomatic or aggressive. A diplomatic player will attempt to befriend near neighbours while launching less effective, but safer attacks on enemies further away (and secretly preparing to attack near neighbours). An aggressive player will attempt to take over or destroy nearer neighbours immediately, while remaining more or less indifferent towards empires who are still too far away to really damage. Different branches of the Economics and Ships trees should reflect this distinction.

The question for the Learning player is whether to be diplomatic or isolationist. Isolationists will attempt to completely block themselves off from the rest of the galaxy, giving themselves enough time to win by tech victory. Diplomats will take a risk in befriending other empires to trade techs and attempt to reach the tech victory faster. This decision is very much related to the expansion options noted earlier. Different branches of the Learning tree need not necessarily reflect this, but it should greatly affect which applications in other categories the player researches.

_________________
Warning: Antarans in dimensional portal are closer than they appear.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:26 am 
Offline
Space Kraken
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:03 pm
Posts: 151
One of the strategies is to colonise as many worlds as possible. This would give more space on each world (with less population per world as the worlds are less developed.) Another strategy is to develop a few worlds much more heavily. The game should support these two strategies, but make it difficult to switch between them. It is no good if the player who chose to spread across the galaxy also gets the advantage of a well developed homeworld. Colonising many worlds should come with the cost of significantly reducing the speed of development on other worlds. There should be advantages to each strategy which are obvious and observable to the player.

Currently there are two kinds of buildings - those which affect a single colony and those which affect all colonies.
Also some give a per colony bonus and some a per population (or a percentage of some other resource like production)

Buildings and Techs which affect every colony are much better for a large empire (one with many colonies). (eg Industrial farms, autolabs and autofactories) Some thought should be given to where these are placed in the tech trees.
Autolabs and autofactories give a per colony bonus, not a per population bonus. These are much more useful for empires spread across 'bad' planets, but worse for empires on a few good planets (with high population).

Colonising more worlds seems to have more advantages than concentrating effort on a few worlds. It is easy to see how building more colonies helps, but choosing not to build more colonies doesn't have any advantage to development. The only advantage seems to be that military defences can be more concentrated.

There needs to be something - maybe government or social that favours more concentrated empires. The more spread empires should also be forced to have more duplication of buildings so that they have a cost for the advantages of many worlds. The player concentrating on a smaller amount of planets should have a benefit too - this is better than just giving size penalties.

There should be a technology branch that helps expansion to new worlds and another different branch that helps concentrated development. The beginning technology in each branch (which is quick to research especially later) should not have large effects which would make it easy to get the benefits of the other branch. The benefits of one strategy over the other should only become apparent later in the game - with higher level technologies. I think the buildings which affect every colony should come at higher levels, so the spread empire would place more effort on them. The concentrated empire shouldn't need to research these kind of technologies at all - the concentration bonus techs shouldn't have prerequisites like autolabs and autofactories.

My main point is that the technology tree should have some kind of high level plan. Branch 1 should help strategy A and so on.

In a similar way diplomacy technologies should be on a different branch to military. (As they are the opposite sides of a coin)

There should be a few different branches each linked to a strategy. By the end of an 'average' game each empire should idealy only have reached the end of only some of these branches. One problem I had with the MoO2 was that if you played a research race you could easily get all the technology - and build most of it too. The military branch obviously needs some construction (and maybe upkeep) to make it useful. The other branches should also be the same. This is particularly true for the production branch - doing research alone shouldn't make you better at production; producuing more factories and so on should make you better at production.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:47 am 
Offline
Space Floater

Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 4:08 pm
Posts: 16
This is a little general but -

I think you should identify and divide as many routes as possible into rock / paper / scissors trumping each other. Then you need to devise a little code algorithm to play through some small scenarios to help see if things are balanced. Then you need lots of playtime balancing things.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:24 am 
Offline
Space Kraken
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:03 pm
Posts: 151
Terraforming and technologies that add to maximum population on good worlds should not be in the same tech tree branch as techs that add to max population on poor worlds. Either you are researching a way to make your worlds better, or to get more worlds. As it is now anyone who can get more worlds also has all their worlds better, so its a double bonus to expand to more worlds when researching Growth.
Invasion and biological warfare should also be on different branches, as they are alternative methods of dealing with enemy planets.
I really think that the technology tree should be designed with different strategies in mind - and with a view to each different path along the tree supporting a particular strategy. I don't think research in itself should be a strategy, but a way of carrying out a strategy. A strategy should be a means of winning the game. At the moment there are not many options - just conquer everyone or research the tech that gives victory. When a new strategy is possible then a whole new branch of the technology tree should be designed to support it. Now the only way to conquer a planet is by invasion, but it is already possible to effectively destroy a planet with Death Spores or Bio Terror facilities. Other options should be available in the future, such as using espionage, diplomacy, money (trade) or even happiness to take planets off your opponents.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:24 pm 
Offline
Space Kraken

Joined: Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:47 pm
Posts: 124
I was thinking some about alternatives that are equally valid paths to a goal recently.

- Social influence of natives or smaller empires should transfer planetary ownership without invasion at roughly the same difficulty as invasion. (Can be slower, but have upsides in trade, reputation, and lower costs)

- Trade should reduce the cost (points and turns) of production and research, but also have security consequences. (Spies could get codes to disable or suborn your units and planets)

- A low level tech should allow for multi-racial colonies, and races should flow between planets. Other low level techs should allow for slanting the planet's racial makeup with specialty housing. In this way empires can get multiple races without any conquest at all.

- Mobile construction techs - Make it equally viable to build ships with the size and capability of planets, or to add engines and armament to planets. (With steps along the way for both).

- System Manipulation - Allow transformation of planets to and from Asteroids and Gas Giants, make it equally viable to colonize those giants (and convert more planets to them) or convert them to planets.

_________________
Everything I post is self-created unless noted otherwise. It is simultaneously released under GPL 2.0 or later, CC Attribution-Share Alike 3.0, and GNU Free Documentation 1.2. Make something awesome with it please!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:32 pm 
Offline
Creative Contributor
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 6:52 pm
Posts: 1396
shawndream wrote:
I was thinking some about alternatives that are equally valid paths to a goal recently.

- Social influence of natives or smaller empires should transfer planetary ownership without invasion at roughly the same difficulty as invasion. (Can be slower, but have upsides in trade, reputation, and lower costs)
.


Agreed..fleshing out diplomacy/espionage should allow this.

shawndream wrote:
- Trade should reduce the cost (points and turns) of production and research, but also have security consequences. (Spies could get codes to disable or suborn your units and planets)

- A low level tech should allow for multi-racial colonies, and races should flow between planets. Other low level techs should allow for slanting the planet's racial makeup with specialty housing. In this way empires can get multiple races without any conquest at all.


Well multi-species planets is a problem, but a mechanism for having a non conquest based multi species empire (perhaps the ability to build a colony ship of a species that is in a neighboring empire that you have open borders with ie you fill a colony ship with immigrants.. it could cost extra or start with a lower population)
As well as a way to switch a planet from one species to another

shawndream wrote:
- Mobile construction techs - Make it equally viable to build ships with the size and capability of planets, or to add engines and armament to planets. (With steps along the way for both).

- System Manipulation - Allow transformation of planets to and from Asteroids and Gas Giants, make it equally viable to colonize those giants (and convert more planets to them) or convert them to planets.


Not sure of those, they sound more like far advanced techs than strategic choices.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:56 pm 
Offline
Design & Graphics Lead Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:09 pm
Posts: 3858
Location: USA — midwest
shawndream wrote:
- Social influence of natives or smaller empires should transfer planetary ownership without invasion at roughly the same difficulty as invasion. (Can be slower, but have upsides in trade, reputation, and lower costs)

That is planned, and is IMHO a very important divergent strategy for someone who wants to play a peaceful diplomatic empire. In fact for an empire that is specialized for "influence" incorporating native planets perhaps should be easier than conquest for a war-focused empire. This is to make up for the fact that "influence" probably can't help much in many situation that a strong fleet can


shawndream wrote:
- A low level tech should allow for multi-racial colonies, and races should flow between planets. Other low level techs should allow for slanting the planet's racial makeup with specialty housing. In this way empires can get multiple races without any conquest at all.

One species per planet was an earlier design decision, which in my time here has been again and again demonstrated to be very wise, and helpful. You can find out about why by searching for "one species per planet" (include the quotes).

_________________
—• Read this First before posting Game Design Ideas!
—• Design Philosophy

—•— My Ideas, Organized —•— Get an Avatar —•— Acronyms —•—


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:39 pm 
Offline
Vacuum Dragon
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:51 pm
Posts: 500
Krikkitone wrote:
Well multi-species planets is a problem, but a mechanism for having a non conquest based multi species empire (perhaps the ability to build a colony ship of a species that is in a neighboring empire that you have open borders with ie you fill a colony ship with immigrants.. it could cost extra or start with a lower population)
If ship trading is ever enabled one could try to barter a colony ship from an allied empire.

_________________
[...] for Man has earned his right to hold this planet against all comers, by virtue of occasionally producing someone totally batshit insane. - Randall Munroe, title text to xkcd #556


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:26 pm 
Offline
Space Kraken

Joined: Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:47 pm
Posts: 124
Krikkitone wrote:
shawndream wrote:
- Mobile construction techs - Make it equally viable to build ships with the size and capability of planets, or to add engines and armament to planets. (With steps along the way for both).

- System Manipulation - Allow transformation of planets to and from Asteroids and Gas Giants, make it equally viable to colonize those giants (and convert more planets to them) or convert them to planets.


Not sure of those, they sound more like far advanced techs than strategic choices.


Right, high level techs with lots of prereqs. If you can get the same rough effect on both (Mobile colonies or colonizing everything), and each has tons of non-shared prereqs, you could choose to climb one tech tree or the other... or get the top level perks later by doing some of both.

Focus on enlarging your ships until they are small planets -OR- focus on enabling your planets until they are clumsy ships.

Focus on flexible colonies that thrive anywhere -OR- focus on changing everywhere to meet your stricter needs.

If multi-racial colonies are verboten to you (I'm still reading your back history about that), there are some possible compromises in the same high tech vein, involving taking two species and converting them into a composite species (that takes all the strengths of both sources), either instantly converting any planet/ship of yours to the composite, or allowing you to upgrade via pp.

Focus on improving biological mastery until you can craft a chimerical hybrid - OR - Focus on improving diplomatic and cultural understanding to allow the races to cooperate in perfect compliment to each other

Again, some top level techs in completely different trees that wind up having the same effect.

_________________
Everything I post is self-created unless noted otherwise. It is simultaneously released under GPL 2.0 or later, CC Attribution-Share Alike 3.0, and GNU Free Documentation 1.2. Make something awesome with it please!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:27 am 
Offline
Space Krill

Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:43 am
Posts: 1
I like MathGeek's suggestion of rock-paper-scissors "Pokemon" strategic balance. Binary strategic choices are boring, for every binary suggestion in this thread, at least one more option would make for a much more interesting strategy, even if they need not actually trump each other as in RPS (nor is there a real need to limit the choices to 3, but that should be considered the minimum when practical, if nothing else by providing an "in-between" option).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:37 pm 
Offline
Dyson Forest

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Posts: 213
Just wanted to add 2 cents to this ancient thread instead of starting a new one:

Strategic options as an answer to the question "Species naturally expand in this universe - what options do they have if they meet other species".

  • Control them (enslave them, isolate them, make them love you)
  • Annihilate them
  • Become untouchable (hide from them, transcend, indestructible defense)
  • Have faith and intelligence to dynamically face all challenges when they come up (make alliances, influence others, do your research in time)

The first three are the more fundamental/permanent ones.
I'm trying to make the "hide from them" version in form of hidden expansion work in freeorion.

_________________
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group