FreeOrion

Forums for the FreeOrion project
It is currently Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:27 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Stealthy Supply
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:21 am 
Offline
Programmer

Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:37 pm
Posts: 219
Edit by Vezzra: splitted topic from here. /EDIT

I like the idea of stealthy supply for a stealthy empire. I initially thought of it as smuggling through and/or theft from existing supply networks, and that it should be implemented as passive projects enabled by influence. Obviously, those implementations are well in the future.

The two methods on the table are:
- supply ships which suffer from micromanagement
- a global production cache which, implementation dependent, might only be available mid/late game and makes an end run around the supply mechanic.

I'm suggesting a third method, extend supply to account for stealth and detection.

Currently, supply works via a diffusion process. Each supply producing planet pushes supply into the network of starlanes known to its empire. At each system, the empire with the highest supply wins, and only its supply propagates through the system.

Change this so that supply producing planets pushes a pair (supply, stealth) into the network of starlanes. At each system each empire has an effective detection strength. Any supply that exceeds all empires detection strengths passes unopposed. Then work your way down through lower detection strength until one empire's detection strength and supply is large enough for it to benefit from the current winner take all strategy, so it gets all the remaining supply.

The benefits are:
- high stealth empires will have a parallel supply network as long as their supply planet's stealth exceeds their neighbors detection strength.
- empires can interact with the mechanic and disrupt the secret supply network by increasing their global/local detection strength.
- available immediately from turn 1 making it a viable strategy for a stealthy empire

The drawbacks are:
- supply is more difficult to explain.
- the GUI for the stealthy portion of supply is difficult to design.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:53 am 
Offline
Psionic Snowflake

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Posts: 488
LGM-Doyle wrote:
I like the idea of stealthy supply for a stealthy empire. I initially thought of it as smuggling through and/or theft from existing supply networks, and that it should be implemented as passive projects enabled by influence. Obviously, those implementations are well in the future.

The two methods on the table are:
- supply ships which suffer from micromanagement
- a global production cache which, implementation dependent, might only be available mid/late game and makes an end run around the supply mechanic.

One could combine them also.

I would rather have the production cache (aka imperial stockpile) from the start on in very whimpy version (like maximum extraction sum of 1PP in your empire). And I think one can tweak it quite well with setting a maximum extraction.

Quote:
I'm suggesting a third method, extend supply to account for stealth and detection.

Currently, supply works via a diffusion process. Each supply producing planet pushes supply into the network of starlanes known to its empire. At each system, the empire with the highest supply wins, and only its supply propagates through the system.

Change this so that supply producing planets pushes a pair (supply, stealth) into the network of starlanes. At each system each empire has an effective detection strength. Any supply that exceeds all empires detection strengths passes unopposed. Then work your way down through lower detection strength until one empire's detection strength and supply is large enough for it to benefit from the current winner take all strategy, so it gets all the remaining supply.

Not sure I understand completely, but I like the idea. It would solve most of the hidden empire problems.
Wouldn't help with deep space expansion though.

Quote:
The benefits are:
- high stealth empires will have a parallel supply network as long as their supply planet's stealth exceeds their neighbors detection strength.
- empires can interact with the mechanic and disrupt the secret supply network by increasing their global/local detection strength.
- available immediately from turn 1 making it a viable strategy for a stealthy empire

The drawbacks are:
- supply is more difficult to explain.
- the GUI for the stealthy portion of supply is difficult to design.

[/quote]
Another drawback:
- the hidden empire can't choose to disrupt the enemies supply lines using its supply anymore (well it can still use ships); this is a little bit of a pity because forcing the enemy to put warships in the dangerous space between the planetary strongholds is very nice if you have somewhere a stealthed fleet waiting. But it is good also because the supply lines at the moment give away a lot information. Maybe one could introduce a new diplomatic status to choose between the two? e.g. Non-interference.

I think understanding supply will be the biggest challenge there. I am already sometimes not sure why there is a supply line or not. I am often putting a warship to a system just because i am guessing it could help extending supply.

About GUI... If I understood correctly, supply will be hidden if you exceed the diffused detection strength of all other empires.
So for the user there will be maximum two different supply lines:
- the strongest visible diffused supply
- (your hidden supply lines)
So adding a second line like in the past would solve this... Maybe make the hidden line dashed


Hm probably this idea should start another thread, shouldnt it?

_________________
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:11 pm 
Offline
Programmer

Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:37 pm
Posts: 219
Ophiuchus wrote:
Wouldn't help with deep space expansion though.

That is intentional. It preserves the existing supply mechanic's ability to limit empire growth. To do deep space colonization an empire would need to research the existing Construction branch technologies.

Ophiuchus wrote:
Another drawback:
- the hidden empire can't choose to disrupt the enemies supply lines using its supply anymore (well it can still use ships); this is a little bit of a pity because forcing the enemy to put warships in the dangerous space between the planetary strongholds is very nice if you have somewhere a stealthed fleet waiting. But it is good also because the supply lines at the moment give away a lot information. Maybe one could introduce a new diplomatic status to choose between the two? e.g. Non-interference.

An empire can still disrupt supply, if they can detect it and their supply is greater than other empires supply. The same as it is now. I'll try and explain more clearly with an example.

At some system there are 3 empires A, B and C with detection, supply stealth and supply values as follows:

Empire A Detection 10, Stealth of supply in system 20.
Empire B Detection 30, Stealth of supply in system 20. Amount of supply 2
Empire C Detection 10, Stealth of supply in system 40. Amount of supply doesn't matter.

Case 1: Supply that can't be detected.
Empire C's supply has stealth of 40, neither empire A or B can detect empire C's supply so it always passes unopposed.

Case 2: Supply that can be detected and blocked.
If empire A's amount of supply is 1. Only empire B can detect empire A's supply. Empire B's supply of 2 is greater than empire A, so it works as it currently does and blocks empire A's supply.

Case 3: Supply can be detected, but exceeds the detecting empires supply so is not blocked.
If empire A's amount of supply is 3. Only empire B can detect empire A's supply. However empire B's supply of 2 is less than empire A. Empire B does not have enough supply to block empire A, and it has no incentive to block itself. Empire B's supply passes unopposed, like a stealthy supply and empire A's supply passes because it is the dominant supply.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:02 pm 
Offline
Psionic Snowflake

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Posts: 488
Also this post should be in a "hidden supply lines" discussion thread.
Could some moderator arrange for this, please? @Vezzra?
The subject should be something like "Stealthy supply lines". The relevant posts are:

p87094
p87105
p87128
p87146 (this post)

LGM-Doyle wrote:
Ophiuchus wrote:
Wouldn't help with deep space expansion though.

That is intentional. It preserves the existing supply mechanic's ability to limit empire growth. To do deep space colonization an empire would need to research the existing Construction branch technologies.

Hm. Not completely sold on this one, deep space colonization is not the same as growth. With the construction techs, supply expansion (and therefor colonization/growth) is sphere shaped and kind of nice and safe.
With the playing style i envision, deep space colonization is risky and more gritty. It is more focussed on exploring the galaxy and other empires. Expansion is spotty and has lines/spikes going out. Probably will help with establishing diplomatic relationships.

(Hm maybe if we make outposts/refuel stations easier to hide (e.g. via species bonus) would go some way of making this possible; started a discussion here : viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10382 )

_________________
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:24 pm 
Offline
Psionic Snowflake

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Posts: 488
LGM-Doyle wrote:
At some system there are 3 empires A, B and C with detection, supply stealth and supply values as follows:

Empire A Detection 10, Stealth of supply in system 20.
Empire B Detection 30, Stealth of supply in system 20. Amount of supply 2
Empire C Detection 10, Stealth of supply in system 40. Amount of supply doesn't matter.

Case 1: Supply that can't be detected.
Empire C's supply has stealth of 40, neither empire A or B can detect empire C's supply so it always passes unopposed.

Case 2: Supply that can be detected and blocked.
If empire A's amount of supply is 1. Only empire B can detect empire A's supply. Empire B's supply of 2 is greater than empire A, so it works as it currently does and blocks empire A's supply.

Case 3: Supply can be detected, but exceeds the detecting empires supply so is not blocked.
If empire A's amount of supply is 3. Only empire B can detect empire A's supply. However empire B's supply of 2 is less than empire A. Empire B does not have enough supply to block empire A, and it has no incentive to block itself. Empire B's supply passes unopposed, like a stealthy supply and empire A's supply passes because it is the dominant supply.


So what about Case 1 if empire C has amount of supply 4 there.
As A and B can't detect it, their supply is unhindered.
If C didnt have such a high stealth, it would block A and B.

I think thats ok and fitting, but a player might rather want to blockade even if they have higher stealth.

_________________
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Stealthy Supply
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:45 pm 
Offline
Programming, Design, Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:33 am
Posts: 12224
Location: Munich
I haven't read through it detail, but the concept of a separate stealthy supply system seems like a bad idea to me. I don't see a problem with needing to use a different system to exchange resources or resupply ships if an empire wants to keep stuff stealthy, including not interacting with other empires' supply propagation.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Stealthy Supply
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:36 pm 
Offline
Programmer

Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:37 pm
Posts: 219
Ophiuchus, Empire C's detection is 10, so even if their supply is 4, they can't detect anyone else's supply. You can't block what you can't detect.

However, if their supply was 4 and their detection was high enough to detect other supply, then it would automatically be blocked, the same as the current system. You don't chose at each system to block/not block supply. A clever adversary could use this to infer the location of hidden planets.


Geoff, this isn't intended to be a separate supply network. It adds stealth and detection to the resolution criteria at each node in the current algorithm. It was a way to abstract the stealthy supply ship idea without the micro management. And it avoids the global cache's tendency to circumvent the supply system's limits on empire size. It should be a transparent, no micromanagement change to supply that facilitates stealthy empires.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Stealthy Supply
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:11 am 
Offline
Space Dragon
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm
Posts: 250
Stupid question 1: why did overlapping supply go away?

Stupid question 2: how much of this could be solved (IE: the struggle of making distributed empires) by making colony ships cheaper?

_________________
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Stealthy Supply
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:40 pm 
Offline
Psionic Snowflake

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Posts: 488
LGM-Doyle wrote:
However, if their supply was 4 and their detection was high enough to detect other supply, then it would automatically be blocked, the same as the current system. ... A clever adversary could use this to infer the location of hidden planets.

Hm. Rather you would infer that hidden planets belong to an empire, right?
Ok, then strategic-wise to stay truly hidden you would need to choose bad supply planets and not research techs which improve supply. Interesting.

_________________
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Stealthy Supply
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:18 pm 
Offline
Creative Contributor
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:45 pm
Posts: 3310
labgnome wrote:
Stupid question 1: why did overlapping supply go away?

Geoff's idea, I like it, it gives you solid borders to your empire.
Quote:
Stupid question 2: how much of this could be solved (IE: the struggle of making distributed empires) by making colony ships cheaper?

You mean relative to the colony building/outpost approach? None, because we've deliberately made that the cheaper way to colonise for most players/strategies as it reduced micromanagement and player frustration substantially.

I would rather insist that stealth players use stealth colony ships than change it that it's normally more optimal/efficient to use a colony ship instead of a colony building. But I'd rather introduce some solid changes to make stealth-as-a-strategy both viable and fun.

_________________
Mat Bowles

Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Stealthy Supply
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:21 pm 
Offline
Psionic Snowflake

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Posts: 488
labgnome wrote:
Stupid question 2: how much of this could be solved (IE: the struggle of making distributed empires) by making colony ships cheaper?

There are different goals and different ideas what a distributed empire means.

Some refer to stealth-as-a-strategy. I think that means that your empire stretches into enemy territory, with those planets being first class citizens.

For deep space exploration, you need a way to get your ships as far into space as possible. This usually boils down to fuel and refueling stations. And a way to hide/secure those.

At the moment having a planet supply disconnected makes it like a third class citizen. You don't get all those benefits which you have probably in your supply network (e.g. black hole generator, growth specials...) and the other way round if you have such an asset on the planet, it doesnt help you in a meaningful way. Industry focus on that planet does not really help you. You usually don't have enough PP there to build anything meaningful.

With the imperial supply stockpile or supply ships proposals you have something like a second class citizen. You still don't get those supply-line connected benefits. But you can build there and you can use the generated PP. These definitely help with deep space exploration.

The stealthy supply proposal is the only one at the moment which makes your planets in enemy territory first class.



Cheaper colony ships help in deep space exploration using hidden colonies. But they also have many side-implications (growth gets a lot faster).
They also maybe help building a not hidden supply line using hidden colonies. But if you can build more colonies, your enemy can as well and then he can disrupt your supply line.

_________________
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.


Last edited by Ophiuchus on Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Stealthy Supply
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:56 pm 
Offline
Programmer

Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:37 pm
Posts: 219
Ophiuchus wrote:
Hm. Rather you would infer that hidden planets belong to an empire, right?
Ok, then strategic-wise to stay truly hidden you would need to choose bad supply planets and not research techs which improve supply. Interesting.

When I read this is occurred to me that we treat stealthy ships and stealthy planets differently.

If a ship is stealthier than your detection and it doesn't attack, then you don't even see it in the UI. If it attacks then you see a partially visible ship that suggests to the player to research better detection to completely view this ship.

However, stealthy planets are always partially visible. That makes sense for "Cloud Cover" and "Ash Clouds" which only prevent seeing the planet's surface. However, "Planetary Dimensional Cloak" and "Planetary Phasing Cloak" suggest to me technologies capable of completely removing a planet, even its gravitational signature, from the reach of less technologically sophisticated empires. A planet as invisible as a stealthy ship.

Then you could have a truly hidden empire. And natives like the Furthest would be really hidden.

Fun thought.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Stealthy Supply
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:35 pm 
Offline
Creative Contributor
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:45 pm
Posts: 3310
Actually, and I don't know why (you can read the code better than me), a planet with high enough stealth is invisible as well, best example is normally the Experimentors homeworld, but you normally get hidden planets with high stealth species kicking around: they normally show up if you actually put a ship in the system itself but not if you only look in from outside.

_________________
Mat Bowles

Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Stealthy Supply
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:54 pm 
Offline
Psionic Snowflake

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Posts: 488
Geoff the Medio wrote:
I haven't read through it detail, but the concept of a separate stealthy supply system seems like a bad idea to me.

Hi Geoff, could you elaborate a bit more? Would this be strategy wise, UI wise, concept complexity, implementation complexity?

From the view of a player I would imagine:
If you are not hidden, the supply lines would look the same like now.
If you are hidden and want to disrupt, the supply lines would look the same like now plus your supply lines would be overlapping where your enemies have higher supply.
If you are hidden and dont want to disrupt, your enemies would kind of ignore your supply and your supply lines would be overlapping like in earlier versions.

_________________
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Stealthy Supply
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:28 pm 
Offline
Space Dragon
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm
Posts: 250
MatGB wrote:
labgnome wrote:
Stupid question 1: why did overlapping supply go away?

Geoff's idea, I like it, it gives you solid borders to your empire.
I don't completely hate it but I'm not a fan either :?

Really I think we were (and might still be) at the wrong stage to implement that. It seems to me like it's actually creating problems that we don't have the mechanics to solve effectively (or at least simply) right now. Basically I think the KISS solution would be to bring back overlapping supply, then decide when and where we don't want supply to overlap. IE: decide what stops supply, not what allows it.
MatGB wrote:
Quote:
Stupid question 2: how much of this could be solved (IE: the struggle of making distributed empires) by making colony ships cheaper?

You mean relative to the colony building/outpost approach? None, because we've deliberately made that the cheaper way to colonize for most players/strategies as it reduced micromanagement and player frustration substantially.
Oh I do like the new mechanic. I just think that the colony ships could use a re-balancing pass as it's been around for a while now. I know I basically don't use them past early game (and in quite a few I only use my starting one), and the advantage of the cyro-pod isn't really enough for me to invest in them. Maybe have one or all colony-pods that also boost fuel? Maybe one that didn't consume population (a clone-pod)? I get it's supposed to be more expensive, but it's more costly in time, resources and it consumes population from the source planets. It's not just that they cost more it's there's also not really any benefit to them, especially if you have even decent supply. Also: there are too few ships available early enough with a second internal slot to allow for extra travel range, which is exactly where a colony ship should have an advantage.

MatGB wrote:
I would rather insist that stealth players use stealth colony ships than change it that it's normally more optimal/efficient to use a colony ship instead of a colony building. But I'd rather introduce some solid changes to make stealth-as-a-strategy both viable and fun.
Ophiuchus wrote:
Cheaper colony ships help in deep space exploration using hidden colonies. But they also have many side-implications (growth gets a lot faster).
They also maybe help building a not hidden supply line using hidden colonies. But if you can build more colonies, your enemy can as well and then he can disrupt your supply line.
Same problem as the fuel-issue mentioned above: too few internal slots available early game for this to be a viable game strategy. Also again why I think we introduced non-overlapping supply at the wrong time.

Ophiuchus wrote:
The stealthy supply proposal is the only one at the moment which makes your planets in enemy territory first class.
I think it's the best proposal so-far. But I really think that it's a bit cumbersome and potentially confusing as it stands now. Really I think this discussion and quite a few other are the result of previous decisions that we are now paying for. My call would be to either roll the non-overlapping supply back, or give colony ships a balance pass. I think that both the stealth as a strategy and deep-space exploration have suffered recently, and are in even worse straits than they were before.

_________________
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group