Custom species: Point-based creation system

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Oberlus
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Custom species: Point-based creation system

#1 Post by Oberlus »

Here it is an attempt (first one maybe, I found nothing on the forum) to give points to available species characteristics and bonus/malus for a custom species creation system.

For the available attributes I just checked what are the traits that any species can have. I may have missed some.
To assign points I assume humans can be considered as having 0 points in total, and then I try to weight how much (dis)advantage does bring any possible trait in terms of RP/PP output when the rest are all equal. For example, an species with great production (200%) may be expected to progress at twice the speed of an average species (again, assuming rest traits are equal). The rest of stimations are even more intuitive than that, so I expect noticeable deviations from what could be considered balanced.


Output group:

* Research:
- 75%: +10 points.
- 100%: 0 points.
- 150%: -10 points.
- 200%: -20 points.
- 300%: -30 points.

* Production:
- 75%: +15 points.
- 100%: 0 points.
- 150%: -15 points.
- 200% -25 points.
- 300%: -35 points.

* Population:
- 75%: +20 points.
- 100%: 0 points.
- 125%: -20 points.
- 150%: -40 points.

* Metabolism:
- Robotic/Organic/Lithic: 0 points.
- Phototrophic: -5 points (I would say -20 points on young galaxy, -5 points on mature and +10 on ancient, if costs would be tied to galaxy age, what would be possible if species is customised after galaxy characteristics have been set).
- Self-sustaining: -20 points.

Expansion group:

* Supply bonus:
- +0: +5 points.
- +1: 0 points.
- +2: -5 points.
- +3: -10 points.

* Environtment tolerance:
- Narrow (no adequate planets): +15 points.
- Broad (double poor planets): -5 points.

* Colonisation speed:
- +25%: +5 points
- -25%: -5 points

Military group:

* Pilots:
- -1: +10 points.
- +0: 0 points.
- +1: -5 points.
- +2: -10 points.
- +3: -20 points.

* Defensive troops:
- 50%: +5 points.
- 100%: 0 points.
- 150%: -5 points
- 200%: -10 points

* Offensive troops:
- 50%: +5 points.
- 100%: 0 points.
- 150%: -5 points
- 200%: -10 points

Others group:

* Detection range:
- -20: +5 points.
- +25: -2 points.
- +50: -5 points.
- +100: -10 points.

* Planetary stealth:
- -20: +2 points.
- +0: 0 points.
- +20: -2 points.
- +40: -5 points.
- +60: -10 points.

* Others
- Telepathy: -5 points.
- Xenophobic: +5 points.

Pending:

* Diplomacy.

* Influence.


My next step should be, I think, to calculate the points that has the playable species as for this initial sketch of point costs, find out if they appear as over- or underpowered as for the points, and this get a picture of how reasonable is the sketch (considering that some species are better than others, like Egassem). To be continued. But don't hesitate to give any kind of feedback.

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Re: Custom species: Point-based creation system

#2 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote:Here it is an attempt (first one maybe, I found nothing on the forum) to give points to available species characteristics and bonus/malus for a custom species creation system.
Hi Oberlus. Just curious, what would be the point of such a system? The species are one of the things which are the easiest thing to adapt via scripting.

In the best world i think the following happens - one wants a special species and hits the forums and asks for that. With some help the person does the first personal adaption of freeorion. And maybe gets the taste to change some more :)

Also I think it is good that we have distinctive names for species so we know what others talk about.
Oberlus wrote:My next step should be, I think, to calculate the points that has the playable species as for this initial sketch of point costs, find out if they appear as over- or underpowered as for the points, and this get a picture of how reasonable is the sketch (considering that some species are better than others, like Egassem). To be continued. But don't hesitate to give any kind of feedback.
I think someone did an overview of the species, but in a spreadsheet. Probably @MatGB knows.
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Re: Custom species: Point-based creation system

#3 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote:what would be the point of such a system? The species are one of the things which are the easiest thing to adapt via scripting.

In the best world i think the following happens - one wants a special species and hits the forums and asks for that. With some help the person does the first personal adaption of freeorion. And maybe gets the taste to change some more :)
Good points. However, I still think it would be a nice addition to the game:
- Manual adaptation of species (or anything else) via scripting will always be less user-friendly than using the game GUI, and will always impose a limitation to a certain share of the players.
- The point creation system would be aimed not only at allowing user customisation but also providing a way (guideline) to produce relatively balanced species (for same amount of points).
- Moreover, it would provide a way to measure the amount of extra difficulty (or ease) of the game due to player's species' handicap (or advantage), and would work well with the replacement of victory conditions by achievements.
it is good that we have distinctive names for species so we know what others talk about.
That is a "problem" regardless you make the adaptation/customisation via scripting or a window in the game. But you could always list the relevant characteristics.

Thanks for the feedback :)

PS: also, adapting via script mean that the modified species can also appear as an AI adversary. If your aim is to make game harder (or easier) some games won't be like that if your opponents have the same traits as you.

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Re: Custom species: Point-based creation system

#4 Post by Jaumito »

Ophiuchus wrote:Hi Oberlus. Just curious, what would be the point of such a system?
I think it'd be really great for competitive multiplayer games, especially if you could disable the species specs/pedia pages. Just like old Stars!

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Re: Custom species: Point-based creation system

#5 Post by alleryn »

I like this idea for, if nothing else, as you said:
providing a way (guideline) to produce relatively balanced species (for same amount of points).
I'd like to pursue this further, but one quick observation while i'm thinking of it:
Offensive Troops are much more useful than Defensive Troops and should have much greater points associated with it.

Not only are offensive troops used to take natives and aid in expansion (this is probably the most significant part, if natives are active in the galaxy), but also the penalty associated to defensive troops only typically affects a small fraction of your actual garrison on a planet, much of that being provided by the flat bonuses from Planetary Bunker and Planetary Fortification Network. I.e. if one species has 150% offense troops, while the other has 150% defense troops, the number of troop carriers that need to be built to take the planet does not remain constant, it decreases, since the offensive player gets the full 150% bonus to his number of troops, while the defensive player has that 150% only modify a portion of the defenders.

I suppose defensive troops does have the small advantage that you really need only one species in your empire to be building troop carriers, whereas defense will always have some utility, but i feel that this is, in general, very much outweighed by the above considerations. Perhaps the offensive malus is not as much worse than the defensive malus as the offensive bonus is better than the defensive bonus. I would say something like

* Defensive troops:
- 50%: +5 points.
- 100%: 0 points.
- 150%: -5 points
- 200%: -10 points

* Offensive troops:
- 50%: +7 points.
- 100%: 0 points.
- 150%: -9 points
- 200%: -20 points

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Re: Custom species: Point-based creation system

#6 Post by labgnome »

So I recently started playing Stellaris, and one thing that they do is to not just have a point-buy system for traits, but also a set number of special traits and you have to spend all of your points. Which I think might be a good way to work-in balancing of player created species. IE: let's say you get a certain number of points to "buy" your traits, but are limited to 5 special traits. Sicne the metabolism types aren't all equal, I'd suggest 12 for phototrophic, 8 for self-sustaining and 10 for organic, lithic and robotic.

Also, there are quite a few traits to include, so here's a catalog:
  • Ultimate Research: 12
  • Great Research: 8
  • Good Research: 4
  • Bad Research: -4
  • *No Research: -8
  • Ultimate Industry: 12
  • Great Industry: 8
  • Good Industry: 4
  • Bad Industry: -4
  • *No Industry: -8
  • Ultimate Population: 15
  • Great Population: 10
  • Good population: 5
  • Bad Population: -5
  • **No Growth Focus: -10
  • *Fixed Population: -15
  • Ultimate Weapons: 12
  • Great Weapons: 8
  • Good Weapons: 4
  • Bad Weapons: -4
  • ?No Weapons: -8
  • Ultimate Shields: 9
  • Great Shields: 6
  • Good Shields: 3
  • Bad Shields: -3
  • No Shields: -6
  • Ultimate Fuel: 15
  • Great Fuel: 10
  • Good Fuel: 5
  • Bad Fuel: -5
  • Ultimate Offensive Troops: 15
  • Great Offensive Troops: 10
  • Good Offensive Troops: 5
  • Bad Offensive Troops: -5
  • No Offensive Troops: -10
  • Ultimate Defensive Troops: 9
  • Great Defensive Troops: 6
  • Good Defensive Troops: 3
  • Bad Defensive Troops: -3
  • No Defensive Troops: -6
  • Ultimate Detection: 9
  • Great Detection: 6
  • Good Detection: 3
  • Bad Detection: -3
  • Ultimate Stealth: 12
  • Great Stealth: 8
  • Good Stealth: 4
  • Bad Stealth: -4
  • No Stealth: -8
  • Ultimate Supply: 15
  • Great Supply: 10
  • Good Supply: 5
  • Bad Supply: -5
  • Broad Tolerance: 5
  • Narrow Tolerance: -5
  • Telepathic: 5
  • Xenophobic: 5
  • Communal Vision: 10
  • Telepathic Detection 5: 10
  • Telepathic Detection 4: 8
  • Telepathic Detection 3: 6
  • Telepathic Detection 2: 4
  • Telepathic Detection 1: 2
  • Ultimate Asteroid Industry: 18
  • Great Asteroid Industry: 16
  • Good Asteroid Industry: 12
  • Average Asteroid Industry: 8
  • Bad Asteroid Industry: 4
  • ***Light Sensitive: -5
  • *Cannot Colonize: -10
  • *Cannot Build Ships: -10
  • *Always Advanced Tech: 10
  • *Always Moderate Tech: 5
  • *Primitive: -5
  • *No Advanced Foci: -5
  • ??Extinct: -10
  • Gas Giant EP: 10
  • Asteroid Belt EP: -5
  • Playable & Native: 8
  • Native Only: 4
*Native species only.
**Organic, Lithic and Robotic Only
***Not phototrophic species.
?As an extrapolation this should technically be an option, but I don't know about game-play impact, or exactly how "weapon" should be qualified (fighter and bombardment come to mind). Probably only natives, but maybe one the diplomacy aspect gets going maybe kind-of feasible for a playable species.
?? Could be available option for a playable and "native" species. Certainly would make for an interesting "lost civilization" kind of scenario. Note to self: design this species later, give communal vision.

Yes scripting in species is one of the easier things to do. However, I think having a tool for the player to do so would be useful, and certainly before getting to 1.0, so having that set up so that the species created are balanced would be nice. Not just for playable species either. It might be nice to have an easy tool for people to populate their galaxy with self-designed species so they can have as much variety as they like. Mind you, these numbers are entirely preliminary and I don't know that they would necessarily be right, but I do think this covers all the different traits the various species have. Playable and Native is not something that currently exists, but it is something I've used in my games. Namely with humans (because all of their stats are average) and George (for the interesting effects of the communal vision), but if it is something that we would want to include it should probably cost. I am personally of the opinion that only planet-bound native species should get "ultimate" traits, but Egassem seem to be sticking with it, so I am including them and not tagging them as native only. I also included a full range of traits that currently only one species has at a special level, or even has at all. Apparently there is work now on a playable gas giant species, which I do think is cool, but also realize could be OP, so unlike other environmental preferences it should probably cost, and I've also included asteroid belt preference for that reason.

Really, what I am unsure of is certain aspects that play off of each other. Like no ships also effectively means no attack troops, and telepathic detection implies telepathy, as does communal vision. Stellaris does use a system of interdependency and mutual exclusion, but it isn't always clear or intuitive. If we did do something like that, it would effect the costs as we might want to make sure they are appropriate, but also that we aren't double charging the player for them either. This also isn't going into some of the bigger proposed changes like "good" and "bad" fighters, or the influence mechanic.

I do think that working out a "cost" for the different traits would be a good idea. Namely in that balancing certain species in the game has been tricky, the Thrith and Egassem for example, and if we were able to assign values to the traits, and the basically re-build some of the more "problem" species using them we might actually be able to have them be properly balanced.
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Re: Custom species: Point-based creation system

#7 Post by labgnome »

So I am going to share some more credentialed thoughts based on discussions about modifying species in the game in this topic here and species values in this topic here.

1. Select Species Metabolism:
Must select one.
  • Organic Metabolism: no cost.
  • Lithic Metabolism: no cost.
  • Robotic Metabolism: no cost.
  • Pototrophic Metabolism: refund 2 points.
  • Self-Sustaining: cost 4 points.
  • Gaseous: cost 2 points.
2. Select Species Environmental Traits:
You will need to select a planet type and environmental preference and environmental preference, or one of the special preferences. You will need to select The gas-giant preference will be for the gaseous metabolism only, and that will also be the only metabolism that gets the gas-giant preference.
  • Preferred Planet Type: terran, ocean, swamp, toxic, inferno, radiated, barren, tundra and desert types. Choose only one. No cost.
  • Environmental Preference: narrow, standard and broad tiers. Refund for narrow tier. Cost 4 points per tier.
  • Gas Giant Special Preference: Choose instead of Perfected Planet Type and Environmental Preference. No cost.
  • Asteroid Belt Special Preference: Choose instead of Perfected Planet Type and Environmental Preference. Cost 4 points.
3. Select Species Biological Traits:
All traits default to average. You select the appropriate tier.
  • Production: bad, average, good, great and ultimate tiers. Refund for bad tier. Cost 2 points per tier.
  • Research: bad, average, good, great and ultimate tiers. Refund for bad tier. Cost 2 points per tier.
  • Influence: bad, average, good, great and ultimate tiers. Refund for bad tier. Cost 2 points per tier.
  • Population: bad, average, good, great and ultimate tiers. Refund for bad tier. Cost 4 points per tier.
4. Select Species Cultural Traits
Traits default to either average or none. You select the appropriate tier.
  • Supply: bad, average, good, great and ultimate tiers. Refund for bad tier. Cost 3 points per tier.
  • Stockpiling: bad, average, good, great and ultimate tiers. Refund for bad tier. Cost 4 points per tier.
  • Colonization: slow, average and fast tiers. Refund for slow tier. Cost 4 points per tier.
  • Detection: bad, average, good, great and ultimate tiers. Refund for bad tier. Cost 4 points per tier.
  • Stealth: none, bad, average, good, great and ultimate tiers. Cost 4 points per tier.
5. Select Species Martial Traits:
Traits default to either average or none. You select the appropriate tier.
  • Ship Weapons: bad, average, good, great and ultimate tiers. Refund for bad tier. Cost 3 points per tier.
  • Planet Defenses: bad, average, good, great and ultimate tiers. Refund for bad tier. Cost 3 points per tier.
  • Attack Troops: none, bad, average, good, great and ultimate tiers. Refund for none and bad tier. Cost 4 points per tier.
  • Defense Troops: none, bad, average, good, great and ultimate tiers. Refund for none and bad tier. Cost 4 points per tier.
  • Ship Shields: none, bad, average, good, great and ultimate tiers. Cost 5 points per tier.
  • Planet Shields: none, bad, average, good, great and ultimate tiers. Cost 5 points per tier.
6. Select Species Psionics:
Must select one option.
  • Immunity: does not grant telepathic. Grants immunity to psi-dom and psionic influence projects. Cost 3 points.
  • Non-Telepathic: no cost.
  • Telepathic: cost 2 points.
  • Communal Vision: grants telepathic. Cost 4 points.
  • Telepathic Detection: 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 jump range tiers. Cost 3 points per tier.
7. Select Species Values:
This is a mostly new proposal based on discussion in other topics. Each species will need at least one value. Species values will determine what they like and don't like. Each value has a corresponding opposite value. You cannot select opposite values.
  • Xenophobic: the opposite of Gregarious. Generates unhappiness on surrounding colonies of other species. Refund 3 points.
  • Gregarious: the opposite of Xenophobic. Generates happiness on surrounding planets of other species. Cost 3 points.
  • Pacifist: the opposite of Warrior. Generates unhappiness based on the number of troops and when at war. Refund 3 points.
  • Warrior: the opposite of Pacifist. Generates happiness based on the number of troops and when at war. Cost 3 points.
  • Isolationist: the opposite of Cosmopolitan. Generates unhappiness when near another empire's supply range and when in an alliance. Refund 3 points.
  • Cosmopolitan: the opposite of Isolationist. Generates happiness when near another empire's supply range and when in an alliance. Cost 3 points.
  • Unified: the opposite of Tribal. Generates unhappiness based on distance of colonies of the same species. Refund 3 points.
  • Tribal: the opposite of Unified. Generates happiness based on distance of colonies of the same species. Cost 3 points.
  • Environmentalist: the opposite of Industrial. Generates unhappiness based on the fraction of planets set to production. Refund 3 points.
  • Industrial: the opposite of Environmentalist. Generates happiness based on the fraction of planets set to production. Cost 3 points.
  • Lowbrow: the opposite of Elite. Generates unhappiness based on the fraction of planets set to research. Refund 3 points.
  • Elite: the opposite of Lowbrow. Generates happiness based on the fraction of planets set to research. Cost 3 points.
  • Deviant: the opposite of Conformist. Generates unhappiness based on the fraction of planets set to influence. Refund 3 points.
  • Conformist: the opposite of Deviant. Generates happiness based on the fraction of planets set to influence. Cost 3 points.
Anyway these are some more recent thoughts I have had on the subject.
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Re: Custom species: Point-based creation system

#8 Post by Oberlus »

labgnome wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 10:45 pm
A lot of work invested here :)
I won't opine until some of the traits that are currently proposals (like species values or kinds of governments) are actually discussed and decided.
Also, some of the already established traits could be rebalanced in a near future. We need to wait for influence to develop.

And then, we'll have to use the proposed point-based creation system to actually create species and compare them with the current species (that are supposed to be relatively balanced). And if you find that you can make OP and UP species with the system then it needs reworking. I would say that some of the proposed costs in your proposal are rather out of line (like phototrophic refunding 2 instead of costing some, since it is a good trait to have except on ancient galaxies... and so its cost should depend on galaxy age setting; colonisation speed, which I find useless, costing more than production/research/influence; or +25% population costing twice +50% research/production). The thing is we can't base the decisions in opinions (like the ones I've just expressed), we must do calculations and simulations (after the other systems like Influence are finished).


PS: I would open a dedicated thread for Species/Empires Values for discussion. There we could gather the old proposals (there are some good ones as old as 2003 that have not been mentioned in recent discussion) and do a good discussion. For example, I think communal vision and telepathy should be separate traits (so that you could have both or only one, but not being forced to be telepathic in order to have communal vision).

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Re: Custom species: Point-based creation system

#9 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 9:09 amI won't opine until some of the traits that are currently proposals (like species values or kinds of governments) are actually discussed and decided.
Also, some of the already established traits could be rebalanced in a near future. We need to wait for influence to develop.
Well part of the purpose of this post is to get feedback.
And then, we'll have to use the proposed point-based creation system to actually create species and compare them with the current species (that are supposed to be relatively balanced). And if you find that you can make OP and UP species with the system then it needs reworking. I would say that some of the proposed costs in your proposal are rather out of line (like phototrophic refunding 2 instead of costing some, since it is a good trait to have except on ancient galaxies... and so its cost should depend on galaxy age setting; colonisation speed, which I find useless, costing more than production/research/influence; or +25% population costing twice +50% research/production). The thing is we can't base the decisions in opinions (like the ones I've just expressed), we must do calculations and simulations (after the other systems like Influence are finished).
Firstly, if anything with the system I am proposing, you might get under-powered species, as I don't think you could re-create powerful species like the Egassem or Thrith. However, that's kind-of on purpose. I think they need to get de-powered a bit and I would re-make them using a point buy system. I might have failed to mention but you start off with 10 points to spend.

Secondly, thanks for the feedback on phototrophic, maybe it should be a no cost/0 point trait? I think tying it galaxy age might be a little over-complex. I tried to avoid complicated mechanics in designing the system. I will say that my motivation for giving a refund is that they are the only metabolism that gets a specific malus, while all the others only get bonuses.

Thirdly, making the "bad" tier -25% in some cases was if I remember correctly a decision to actually balance-out how bad traits played out in the game. Mostly I prefer a simple strait-forward system for point-buy. I don't know for sure if it is balanced. Alternately we could propose a completely new system with increases of 25% for each tier, but that would be an even bigger change to the game.

Lastly, while I agree that something like this should be reserved for further down the road, I do think it could be useful to try to come to some kind of consensus as to what we want it to look like when that time comes.
PS: I would open a dedicated thread for Species/Empires Values for discussion. There we could gather the old proposals (there are some good ones as old as 2003 that have not been mentioned in recent discussion) and do a good discussion. For example, I think communal vision and telepathy should be separate traits (so that you could have both or only one, but not being forced to be telepathic in order to have communal vision).
Do you think it should be discussed along with some of the ideas about diplomacy and opinion, or should it get it's own topic?
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Re: Custom species: Point-based creation system

#10 Post by o01eg »

Jaumito wrote: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:59 pm
Ophiuchus wrote:Hi Oberlus. Just curious, what would be the point of such a system?
I think it'd be really great for competitive multiplayer games, especially if you could disable the species specs/pedia pages. Just like old Stars!
I suppose it will make pre-game phase more complex. Moreover for long continuous game where players connect only to playing game I currently need to ask them their species or choose random. With point system there will be many different choices about desired species.
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Re: Custom species: Point-based creation system

#11 Post by Ophiuchus »

A simple point system will not suffice to build a fair creation system even if you consider only a fixed galaxy setup. The interaction of traits is very very complex (sometimes a trait a neutral, but in combination with two others it is crippling). And so i think to do it right is much too expensive in terms of developer time for the gain (YMMV).

One more reason against arbitrary species - Currently the preferred environment of species is used to balance species. They compete for niche/slots. And i think actually that should be more pronounced than it is currently.

So if there is some way to extend the environmental capabilities of a species, it should nerf the species at the same time (so no species trait better than average, some bad traits). The power level for such environmentally enhanced species should be not be better than exobot.
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