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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:21 pm 
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Psionic Snowflake

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Posts: 485
Why not make ship building and other things (namely stargate) more dependent on strategic resources in the supply group.

Basically like this:
* let stargate receive depend on having a neutron star or black hole in your supply group
* let the ships be differentiated in three tiers (e.g. tier1: robotic hull, asteroid hull, stealthy asteroid hull, the 3 basic organic ship hulls tier2: heavy asteroid hull..., tier3: the end-of-line battleships)
* for every tier you need to have the corresping number of different types of growth specials (so for tier three you would need all different types)
* let the robotic line depend on the robotic growth specials
* let the asteroid line depend on the lithic growth specials
* let the organic line depend on organic growth specials
* let the energy line depend on star types (actually thats already the case more or less)
* let the basic line not depend on growth specials (fallback for all if you dont get the right specials)

I was roleplaying a game with this and it made me really play different (building robotics, then asteroids; also an enemy cut off a starlane to a resource so i wasnt able to produce my battle ships in my shipyards anymore before reestablishing the connection). Also I had to think for which hull line there are how many specials in reach for later development.

This came up because some are afraid that the imperial stockpile will make supply groups and starlanes less important. So I thought of a appreciating supply groups more.

Basic implementation of the dependencies is really easy and we would need some explanations (encyclopedia and a sitrep reminder like "You have researched Heavy Asteroid Hulls, but you only have 1 lithic growth special in your empire. In order to build these ships you need in your supply network at least two of the lithic growth specials High-Energy Metalloids, Rich Minerals, and Silmaline Crystals .")

I think if the AI could handle such a thing, we really should do this. The empires would look different depending on the available resources.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:28 pm 
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Space Dragon
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As long as it is optional. :D

I was not a fan of Strategic Resources in CivIII and I wish they
were optional in Galactic CivIII as well.

As far as I am concerned CivII is still the best Civ out there.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:45 pm 
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Pupating Mass

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EricF wrote:
As long as it is optional. :D

Ditto.
Quote:
As far as I am concerned CivII is still the best Civ out there.

Nah, that would be SMAC. :D


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:19 pm 
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EricF wrote:
As far as I am concerned CivII is still the best Civ out there.

If you're on Windows, try C-Evo, it's an open source(ish) rewrite of Civ2 with a lot of tweaks for balance and similar, I really enjoyed it. I never played Civ3, but Civ5 has a nice balance overall: I think I still prefer 2/Evo, but 5 is a good different game.

I am cautious about the idea of making ships dependent on specials, because I do sometimes like to play with no specials and that should be a valid game generation option. But the basic idea of bonuses or similar being dependent on some sort of strategic resource/special is a good one. But a massive pain to balance.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:32 am 
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Psionic Snowflake

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I think i will try somewhen in the future to add this as an extra rule. That game was very interesting.

I was often running into the situation that i couldnt bild my favorite ship design because of those dependencies.
For organics I was stuck most of the time at tier 1. In the whole universe it seems there only two types of organic growth specials.
With asteroids i got fast to tier 2 but finding and fighting the way to the third lithic special took ages.
Robotics i got tier 3 fast. Im not used to that so much so it was interesting that i had a fresh look at those.

For asteroids I played
Tier 1: Asteroid Hulls, Camouflage Asteroid Hulls
Tier 2: Heavy Asteroid Hulls, Mini-Asteroid Swarm (which should maybe go to tier 1)
Tier 3: Scattered Asteroid Hull

For organics I played
Tier 1: Organic Hull, Contrived Symbiosis, Multicellular Casting
Tier 2: Mono-Cellular Expansion, Mega-Fauna Endocrine Systems, Endosymbiotic Hull
Tier 3: Bio-Neural Specialisation, Controlled Ravenous Bioadaptation, Sentient Hull

For robotics I played
Tier 1: Military Robotic Control
Tier 2: Nano-Robotic Maintenance
Tier 3: Logistics Facilitator (which is also the basic line)

So the basic line is
Tier 0: Basic Hulls, Spatial Flux Hull, Self-gravitating Hull, Titanic Hull
Tier 3: Logistics Facilitator (because of robotics)

For energy i didnt add any extra dependencies.

What i didnt like is that the UI / planetary filters were not too helpful in finding the specials.

And I wished for the restriction being enforced by the game already. I researched scattered asteroids hulls and build one. A turn later I remember that I cant use it in this game :(

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Last edited by Ophiuchus on Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:06 pm 
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Vacuum Dragon
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Ophiuchus wrote:
What i didnt like is that the UI / planetary filters were not too helpful in finding the specials.
That's what I thought some time ago, but fiddling with it I found it's rather versatile (with caveats).
On the main Objects windows you can right-click on the header of the last, empty column and select another characteristic to show in there. I use to put in there Specials (when deciding which planet is better to put on growth focus if I have a repeated special) or Planetary Focus (when changing PP/RP politics for a given species and the such).
Then you also have the filter button that allows you to hide all the planets/objects that does not comply with some condition. I use this to only my planets (when managing my colonies), or unnocuppied planets, or planets with specials (although for this last thing I usually just order the optional Special column).


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:14 pm 
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Vacuum Dragon
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Ophiuchus wrote:
Robotics i got tier 3 fast.

I would make self-grav. and titanic hulls tier 2 of robotics.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:58 pm 
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Psionic Snowflake

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Oberlus wrote:
Ophiuchus wrote:
What i didnt like is that the UI / planetary filters were not too helpful in finding the specials.
That's what I thought some time ago, but fiddling with it I found it's rather versatile (with caveats).
On the main Objects windows you can right-click on the header of the last, empty column and select another characteristic to show in there. I use to put in there Specials (when deciding which planet is better to put on growth focus if I have a repeated special) or Planetary Focus (when changing PP/RP politics for a given species and the such).
Then you also have the filter button that allows you to hide all the planets/objects that does not comply with some condition. I use this to only my planets (when managing my colonies), or unnocuppied planets, or planets with specials (although for this last thing I usually just order the optional Special column).

Thanks :) I didnt know about adding own columns

Oberlus wrote:
Ophiuchus wrote:
Robotics i got tier 3 fast.

I would make self-grav. and titanic hulls tier 2 of robotics.

Maybe, but even with bad luck one should be able to build at least tier 2 ships.
In every game there needs to be a hull line which is not dependent completely on randomly placed specials.

I think the easiest way to do this is by having one independent hull line. And forcing one down the road to creating a black hole and build energy ships there is probably overkill.

Another idea would be placing the growth specials not completely random. E.g. of any growth special there need to be at least one per two empires. This could be a setting for the extra rule and could also enable one to play a game with growth specials but no other specials.

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Last edited by Ophiuchus on Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:53 pm 
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Pupating Mass

Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 3:42 am
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Location: Catalonia, France, Europe, Earth, Sol, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Virgo Cluster
Ophiuchus wrote:
Oberlus wrote:
Ophiuchus wrote:
What i didnt like is that the UI / planetary filters were not too helpful in finding the specials.
That's what I thought some time ago, but fiddling with it I found it's rather versatile (with caveats).
On the main Objects windows you can right-click on the header of the last, empty column and select another characteristic to show in there. I use to put in there Specials (when deciding which planet is better to put on growth focus if I have a repeated special) or Planetary Focus (when changing PP/RP politics for a given species and the such).
Then you also have the filter button that allows you to hide all the planets/objects that does not comply with some condition. I use this to only my planets (when managing my colonies), or unnocuppied planets, or planets with specials (although for this last thing I usually just order the optional Special column).

Thanks :) I didnt know about adding own columns

Neither did I! That was my #1 gripe with the game and the reason I stopped playing FO a couple months ago. Thanks a lot Oberius, I swear I'll rename a system in your honor in my next game :D


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:29 pm 
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Vacuum Dragon
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Hahaha, you two are welcome.

Ophiucus, not sure if I understood or if I explained myself correctly: I mean that it seems too easy to get Self-grav and specially Titanic while other less powerful hulls are harder to get, and that seems an invitation to only see those for most games.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:36 pm 
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Psionic Snowflake

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
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I agree. But what if you dont have enough growth specials in (your part of) the galaxy for tier 2? (probably thats rare, i give you that)
Then you are not able to build any significant ships but in the energy line.

Or did you mean to make another line the default hull line - not dependent on strategic resources?

Also would be greatly appreciated if you can come up with ideas for other, guaranteed kinds of dependencies for the self-grav and titanic (e.g. something buildable if not found - like the resonant moon).

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:55 pm 
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Vacuum Dragon
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Hmmm... one new basic (non-robotic) hull with 60 speed, with 3 inner slots and 5-6 external slots would be great to make up for the "whole" there is in that line.
But most probably all this discussion will be out of place until the hull lines overhaul/redesign is done (for which I believe we need to bug MatGB).


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:17 pm 
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Ophiuchus wrote:
Why not make ship building and other things (namely stargate) more dependent on strategic resources in the supply group.
Basically what Mat said:
MatGB wrote:
I am cautious about the idea of making ships dependent on specials, because I do sometimes like to play with no specials and that should be a valid game generation option. But the basic idea of bonuses or similar being dependent on some sort of strategic resource/special is a good one.
Making an essential game element/mechanic dependent upon an optional game element/mechanic is (obviously) bad design. The robotic, asteroid and organic hull lines are the basic hull lines the player should always be able to choose between, regardless of the selected game settings. Therefore they must not depend on e.g. strategic resources that may or may not be available on the map. Asteriod hulls depending on asteroid belts work because asteroid belts are an essential game element always present on all maps.

Specials however are optional, you can completely turn them off, but even if on "low" setting might be so rare as to seriously impede the usability/viability of these basic hull lines.

Just as a sidenote: not even the Solar Hull (late game flagship hull of the energy hull line), which depends on the very rare black holes really falls in the category of something that depends on an only rarely or optionally available strategic resource, because the tech tree offers sufficient means to gain access to (or create) the required game element (the black hole) out of one that's sufficiently common (red stars).

What you can do is, like Mat suggested, make some boni or extras dependent on the growth specials. E.g. if you build your organic shipyards at a planet with an organic growth special, the built time for organic ship is shortened (probiotic soup makes organic hulls grow faster!). Robotic hulls could have increased self repair rates if in a system supply connected to a robotic growth special. And so on. You get the idea.

Making optional elements as stargates dependent on other optional elements is fine too. In that specific case (stargates) I even think that's a very interesting idea worth considering. The problem with stargates is that they have the potential to be a "build everywhere" building. Restricting the locations where you can build one e.g. by requiring a certain special at the location could be one way to address that issue.
Ophiuchus wrote:
I think i will try somewhen in the future to add this as an extra rule.
That could be another way to go about this. That way having the three basic hull lines dependent on the availability of growth specials becomes an optional special case choice.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:41 pm 
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Vezzra wrote:
What you can do is, like Mat suggested, make some boni or extras dependent on the growth specials. E.g. if you build your organic shipyards at a planet with an organic growth special, the built time for organic ship is shortened (probiotic soup makes organic hulls grow faster!). Robotic hulls could have increased self repair rates if in a system supply connected to a robotic growth special. And so on. You get the idea.

Oh yes. I love this idea, systems with organic growth specials speed up build time for the slowest to build line is a perfect approach. Perhaps even improve their self repair/growth rates if in supply of one. Same for robotics and their thing. There was an idea put forward awhileback to have extra armour plating available for asteroids built in the crystals special shipyards, all of that could be very interesting.
Quote:
Making optional elements as stargates dependent on other optional elements is fine too. In that specific case (stargates) I even think that's a very interesting idea worth considering. The problem with stargates is that they have the potential to be a "build everywhere" building. Restricting the locations where you can build one e.g. by requiring a certain special at the location could be one way to address that issue.

I over use stargates and find them overpowering, extra restrictions definitely make some sense but they'd need to still be usable, colonisable neutron stars/black holes are deliberately very rare and I'd not want to eliminate them completely.
Quote:
Ophiuchus wrote:
I think i will try somewhen in the future to add this as an extra rule.
That could be another way to go about this. That way having the three basic hull lines dependent on the availability of growth specials becomes an optional special case choice.

I'm still cautious about the very existence of rules, especially given the AI doesn't know about them, but I see the appeal for multiplayer etc: as long as I'm not expected to put too much effort into balancing stuff taking rules into account having more of them is fine.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:22 pm 
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Vacuum Dragon
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MatGB wrote:
Oh yes. I love this idea, systems with organic growth specials speed up build time for the slowest to build line is a perfect approach. Perhaps even improve their self repair/growth rates if in supply of one. Same for robotics and their thing. There was an idea put forward awhileback to have extra armour plating available for asteroids built in the crystals special shipyards, all of that could be very interesting.
Yes, yes, yes. My two cents (adding some more options):
For organics ships:
Reduce minimum turns tu build (-1 per special?) for production in that planet. Increase speed (+10 each different special?) and/or regeneration rate and/or growth rate (+10% per special?) of ships in supply range.
For robotics:
Reduce de cost for production (-10% per special?) in that planet. Increase speed and/or repair rate of ships in supply range.
For asteroids:
Increase the armor (+5 or +10% per special?). Increase speed and/or repair rate of ships in supply range.

Hmm... I can't think of anything else apart from speed or repair rate for ships within supply range, to help differentiate each line.


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