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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:01 am 
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Space Dragon
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Dilvish wrote:
While folks continue exploring those ideas, I'd propose that we take an easy step to deal with the main problem the OP cited, being comsat abuse, by taking at least part of that initially proposed measure-- I'd propose increasing the comsat base cost from 1 to 3 (instead of the above proposed 5). I think that would go a long way towards curbing any comsat abuse, but would still be close enough to current values for other applications (outpost bases & just barely close enough for trooper bases I think) that we wouldn't need to make a significant change to AI planning.
I completely agree, I haven't checked troop pod costs when I suggested 5.

Some figures:

Assuming default parameters (RULE_SHIP_PART_COST_FACTOR == 1, etc.) and varying colony base hul cost between 1, 3 and 5 we get:

First colony base costs 128.2, 130.2 and 132.2 (i.e. for hull cost 3 you are increasing cost, over hull cost 1, by a 1.55%, for 5 it's a 3.1%).
Once you got 10 colonies, it costs 193, 195 and 197 (increases of 1% and 2%).
For hundredth colony, it costs 841, 843 and 845 (increases of 0.24 and 0.48%).

A troop drop costs:
For first ship 4.18, 6.18 and 8.18 (so the increases are proportionally huge and most probably are relevant in early game when PPs/turn are in the order of tenths).
For tenth ship 5.8, 7.8 and 9.8 (still big increase in percentage, 34.5% and 69%, although big PPs/turn will feel it just slightly).
For hundredth ship it would be 22, 24 and 26 (so in late game it would have little effect, considering PPs/turn).

Any comsat (first and thousandth) costs 1, 3 o 5 (i.e. increases of 200% and 400%). This will have a great effect when PPs/turn are low but little effect latter on, except for isolated planets. Examples:
- A blockaded planet with 20 PPs per turn could produce in three turns 60, 18 or 12 comsats (so base hull cost 3 achieves a similar effect than 5).
- An Empire with 200 available PPs/turn that wants to produce quickly 100 comstats for cannon fodder in its choke-point system and devote the rest to build military will have for military production 166, 100 or 33 PPs/turn, so the effect is rather strong for 3 and way more for 5.

Watching this, I think there is very little effect on the costs for either 3 or 5 except for troop drops on early game, for which either 3 or 5 will have a noticeable effect on the required PPs, while 3 seems enough to greatly counteract the comsat abuse.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:36 pm 
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Oberlus wrote:
An Empire with 200 available PPs/turn that wants to produce quickly 100 comstats for cannon fodder in its choke-point system and devote the rest to build military

Keep in mind also, any empire that pops out 100 comsats will then have increased their military production costs for their warships by 100%, a pretty significant thing.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:51 pm 
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Space Dragon

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Dilvish wrote:
Oberlus wrote:
An Empire with 200 available PPs/turn that wants to produce quickly 100 comstats for cannon fodder in its choke-point system and devote the rest to build military

Keep in mind also, any empire that pops out 100 comsats will then have increased their military production costs for their warships by 100%, a pretty significant thing.

i think the production cost hit only applies after being produced. So you can pause your comsats in batches until one turn before you need them. i think tripling the cost is a great idea :)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:48 pm 
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Dyson Forest
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How much time does a turn take? Is each turn just minutes or hours?
Or is each turn days, weeks or months. This is actually important to
the whole question of whether comsats could block an enemy invasion.
If a turn is only minutes or even a few hours I might buy it. Days or
weeks and it falls apart. Months and it is totally bogus.
AFAIAC, unarmed comsats stopping an invasion, even temporarily, is
a gross abuse of a hole in the rules. It shouldn't happen.
To fix it I would propose that any ship with a combat value of zero
not participate in combat at all. After all combat is resolved any side
with just zero combat value ships left is just automatically eliminated.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:30 pm 
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Space Dragon

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EricF wrote:
To fix it I would propose that any ship with a combat value of zero
not participate in combat at all. After all combat is resolved any side
with just zero combat value ships left is just automatically eliminated.

In that case you would have to put mass drivers on your heavy troop ships in order make them count... sounds also not good.

Better idea is the battle scanner (target all armed ships before targetting unarmed ones).

Better idea is also to that unarmed ships are unable to block invasion troops (not sure if they do actually).

Note that the "you can trigger combat with a comsat" is actually a feature ATM. Actually its a workaround for a missing feature.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:24 pm 
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Space Dragon
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Ophiuchus wrote:
Better idea is also to that unarmed ships are unable to block invasion troops (not sure if they do actually).
They don't.

My/the main concern here is that they work as cheap cannon fodder that, with the correct numbers, cripple the offensive capabilities of an invading fleet by taking "out of the combat" a considerable number of shots that otherwise would have destroyed the defending ships and planetary defenses, which implies that the invading fleet will be receiving more hits and would be connecting less hits than what would have happened if the defending fleet had all the PPs invested in armed ships instead of comsats. Is in this last sentence where the main concern is: you can get more out of your PPs by doing something "stupid" (building useless floating junk) than by building actual armed forces.

EricF wrote:
How much time does a turn take? Is each turn just minutes or hours?
Or is each turn days, weeks or months. This is actually important to
the whole question of whether comsats could block an enemy invasion.
Not really. The realism here is neither relevant nor fixable. If combats take minutes, then there should be many many combat turns (thousands, millions) for each turn, given that we are traveling light years and increasing planet populations by millions in a single turn. If combat takes months then the whole combat system is incredible unrealistic and hard to swallow.
This concentration of real-time activities that are packed withing the abstraction "turn" are supposed to be happening at very different paces and we just addapt it to unrealistic dimensions for the sole purpose of pouring some fun into our brains in a way that it can handle it better. The same happens with games like Fallout or Elder Scrolls: you walk like a few hundred steps and you have moved from one sunny, sand country to an iced, snowy mountain range; but try to make the map for real dimensions and you take out all the fun.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:55 am 
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I think we should give the tripled base hull costs a thorough evaluation for solving this before proceeding to other measures. I've posted a PR for it now to give anyone else a last chance to comment before it goes into master; I plan to merge it fairly soon.

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