Reviewing the current Imperial Stockpile mechanics

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Oberlus
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Re: Reviewing the current Imperial Stockpile mechanics

#16 Post by Oberlus »

Both fruits nonetheless. Maybe I didn't make my point.

The point is you can get enough stockpiling to keep your blockaded colonies working and to build on stranded colonies behind enemy lines, keeping all your planets on industry focus (or research), because the pop-based bonus you get from every planet (regardless of focus) gives enough stockpiling for that.
So the supply mechanics are effectively bypassed (at least to a considerable extend) at a little cost (the two first IS technologies). I'd like to know what @Geoff, @Vezzra and the other devs think about this.

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Re: Reviewing the current Imperial Stockpile mechanics

#17 Post by Vezzra »

Oberlus wrote:The point is you can get enough stockpiling to keep your blockaded colonies working and to build on stranded colonies behind enemy lines, keeping all your planets on industry focus (or research), because the pop-based bonus you get from every planet (regardless of focus) gives enough stockpiling for that.
So the supply mechanics are effectively bypassed (at least to a considerable extend) at a little cost (the two first IS technologies). I'd like to know what @Geoff, @Vezzra and the other devs think about this.
For species which aren't at least good/ultimate stockpilers, that's most certainly not how it should work. Those should have to commit a very substantial part of their colonies to stockpiling to achieve what you describe, at that tech level (early/mid tier).

But even good stockpilers should have to make a (much?) more serious commitment, especially at lower tech levels. The commitment has to be substantial, even for good stockpilers, as the IS feature is powerful.

Which is why I think the approach to have the stockpile focus and boni work similar to industry/research makes a lot of sense to me. If you want stockpile capacity, you need to set colonies to the stockpile focus, IS techs grant additional boni (flat or pop based) only to colonies set to the stockpile focus. Of course there should also be techs that grant boni independent of focus setting, but these should be the exception, not the rule (like e.g. Nascent Artifical Intelligence and Distributed Thought Computing do for research).

That way, any empire without good stockpiling species either needs to invest considerable RP to get IS techs to be able to get to decent stockpile capacity levels without having to commit too many of their colonies, or to set more of their colonies to the stockpile focus. Meaning, it requires the kind of commitment only worthwile in certain situations, or if they decide to employ a very special strategy.

Empires with good/ultimate stockpilers should be considerably more efficient at that of course. I guess species like the Sly should get a certain flat or pop based bonus which isn't dependent on focus setting right out of the box, or a fixed flat bonus from their homeworld, or something like that.

But overall, the stockpile boni need to be tied much more to the stockpile focus. The planetary foci are (one of the, if not the) primary means in FO to simulate/model commitment.

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Re: Reviewing the current Imperial Stockpile mechanics

#18 Post by Oberlus »

Agree with Vezzra to the last point.


Just to be clear (because I didn't quote all the convesation in my last post and it may be ambiguous):
Current IS mechanics are not overpowered on early to mid game. Problem comes after non-stockpiling empires get the first two techs and have reached a "big" population.
The first two techs (Generic, Interstellar) gives you a total +0.03*pop bonus (non-focused), and that together with the species trait (also non-focus-binded) becomes too much.
From a certain point onwards, you'll have enough stockpile to do IS stuff regardless of the planetary focus. And in late game things get way worse with the Stockpile Center.



See below some figures for some scenarios, all for average species:
I'm ignoring the interspecies academies, but take into account that they will add up toa fixed 60 Stockpile (10 for each of max 6 buildings when set to stockpile).


MID GAME
* Generic and interst.; 300 pop, 15 planets, all industry-focused: MaxStockpile = 15, MaxIndustry = aprox. 300
This is fine.
* Idem, 10 industry-focused, 5 stockpiling: MaxStockpile = 95, MaxIndustry = aprox. 220
This is fine too (33% focus commitment allows you to trade 80 PPs/turn for +80 extra sotckpile limit (to a number that is enough for, e.g., some fast colony building).


LATE GAME (1000 pop, 50 planets)
* Generic+interst, all planets industry focused: MaxStockpile = 62, MaxIndustry = aprox. 3000
This is fine too, mostly. 62 is enough to build up one or two new colonies per turn ignoring supply.
* Idem + Stockpile Center: MaxStockpile = 362, MaxIndustry = aprox. 3000
So Stockpile Center allows you to add +10% of your industry output to MaxStockpile for just a "small" effort on getting the tech and the only building, effectively multiplying your stockpile by x6 with no focus commitment.

I think this Stockpile Center is truly evil.
By adding a percent of industry focus-less it means you are better focusing on improving your industry and then get the building, ignore void prediction and never again set any focus to stockpile.
If you make it to require the focus the problem stays the same because the building needs only the capital to be set to stockpile (among 50 or 100 planets).

10 % of your industry, when your industry is roughly equivalent to 3x pop, is also roughly equivalent to ULTIMATE_STOCKPILE, +0.3*pop to stockpile.
So I suggest to make the Stockpile Center add something like +0.2*pop to MaxStockpile of every stockpile-focused colony (exactly same way Industry Center works). Thus the better or worse industry of the species does not affect it's stockpile output, and the empire does not get any bonus for no effort.


STILL LATE GAME (1000 pop, 50 planets)
* With all techs and the Stockpile Center as suggested, 0 stockpile-focused: MaxStockpile = 62, MaxIndustry = aprox. 3000
* Idem with 10 stockpile-focused: MaxStockpile = aprox. 290, MaxIndustry = aprox. 2500
So you get little Stockpile if no focused planets, and you multiply that x5 (to make it roughly 10% of your industry output) with a 20% of your colonies set to stockpile.
I think that could be fine. So up to here, only (IMO) real concern regarding excessive stockpile is the Stockpile Center.


VERY LATE GAME (6000 pop, 200 planets, probably only in multiplayer games)
* With all techs (IS, industry, etc.), Stockpile Center as suggested:
- 0 stockpile planets: MaxStockpile = aprox. 300, MaxIndustry = aprox. 14500
- 10 (5%) stockpile planets: MaxStockpile = aprox. 540, MaxIndustry = aprox. 14000
- 40 (20%) stockpile planets: MaxStockpile = aprox. 1100, MaxIndustry = aprox. 12000
So with no stockpiling focus you can do whatever you want with 300 PPs per turn. That's beggining to be big enough for things like pumping out troopers from the just-conquered colonies in a bliztkrieg behind enemy lines. I think that is not fine.
And with 5% of your planets set to stockpile you exchange 3.4% of your production to double your stockpile (allowing aprox. 4% of your production to bypass the supply mechanics). The porcentual increase is small, feels the same, but we are still talking about near 600 PPs per turn bypassing supply with a very little commitment.
And with 20% "commitment", you are "lossing" 2500 PPs/turn in exchange of allowing 1100 PPs per turn to bypass the supply. Same conclusion.




My suggestion, post-release unless someone likes it so much they implement and merge it into release branch as well as master, is to make every pop-based stockpile bonus focus-dependent (including stockpile species trait, just like industry and research traits work).
And to avoid crippling Sly (who really need stockpile output with no focus at the start), add {+0,+1,+3,+10,+30} to the homeworld of {bad,average,good,great,ultimate} stockpile species. This allows them to have slightly better (than current) stockpile at the start and not so good as the game progresses, encouraging them to get IS techs.

These two changes should ensure widespread use of stockpile focus for empires that want to do "IS" stuff (because you no longer get noticeable stockpile bonuses from nothing, you need the focus, but now the focus is not just a tine +3 extra, but also adds the pop-dep bonus).
And together with the suggested Stockpile Center modification, this should imply that for any noticeable stockpile use you need some current commitment (i.e. focus switching and loss of PPs/RPs). The only IS stuff that remains doable with no stockpile focus is early distributed expansion for great stockpile species (Good stockpile species will be fine too, but will probably need Generic Supplies and get one planet to stockpile sooner than Sly in order to keep the same distributed expansion pace.

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Re: Reviewing the current Imperial Stockpile mechanics

#19 Post by phocas »

i don't understand this screen and the production / stockpile numbers

Image

* ok i do not use all the PP so the supply lines are outlined
* ok the excess PP will go to the stockpile (green number)

?? but i do not understand the red !! production warning
usually it means that some PP will be lost but it seems it will be no lost with the stockpile

i have to lower the excess PP under 800 by seting new production queue to remove the !! warning

if i kept the heavy 2.53 k excess PP the calculation will be fine
the next turn show the a right stockpile with 4.40 K stock (1.87 + 2.53)

i'm playing v0.4.8 release-v0.4.8 [build 2018-06-04.41c7665] CMake from the linux PPA

i can provide saved game or log if needed

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Re: Reviewing the current Imperial Stockpile mechanics

#20 Post by Dilvish »

phocas wrote:?? but i do not understand the red !! production warning
usually it means that some PP will be lost but it seems it will be no lost with the stockpile
With the IS, that warning pops up if on the current turn you are sending more to the IS than 1/3 (I think) of your per-turn max draw from the IS.
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Re: Reviewing the current Imperiahl Stockpile mechanics

#21 Post by phocas »

i'm still missing something about tracking the PP lost and the stockpile use

tested with the last rc2 on ubuntu 2018-06-24.4983374 0.4.8 pre-Release Candidate 2.

dikavara is out of suply line and loosing 5 PP from the production view but there is no !! warning

Image

if i forced the stockpile with the build queue the 5 PP are no more lost and there is no change in the stockpile screen

Image

so i understand the 5 PP where stocked before i had in the building the stockpile transfert
it seems that i'm depleting 6.58 from the stockpile and stocking 5.0 PP from dikavara but it is not easy to see
some screens show there are PP lost and some they are not
maybe it will need more different colors tho show what's going home

the line excess 5.00 PP should only be red if there are effective lost

if the free PP are not lost but savec in the stockpile there should be another color, maybe green as then the stockpile is growing
excess 5.00 PP

the total stockpile number 526 (-1.96) could be more explicit with more numbers
if it is possible with the screen width 5.26 ( -1.96 = +5.0 - 6.96 ) could be very nice and more easy to check/understand

f there i no room in the top line it should at least be in the popup stockpile detail with 1 more line to show the + / -
replacing the "stockpile use" line by the 2 lines (stockpile add, / stock pile lost)

Image

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Re: Reviewing the current Imperial Stockpile mechanics

#22 Post by Oberlus »

phocas wrote:i'm still missing something about tracking the PP lost and the stockpile use
There is no waste PPs anymore. No way. What you don't use in a given turn, is stored in the Stockpile, all of it.

The old waste warning icon is no longer a message of waste. What it indicates now is an excessive input into de stockpile. Excessive in that you will need alot of time to take it back from the stockpile. So when you see the icon, it is telling you that it's probably a bad idea to keep the current stockpiling (input) rate, and you better start looking for something to spend your production into.

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Re: Reviewing the current Imperial Stockpile mechanics

#23 Post by phocas »

thanks Oberlus i see the light :wink:

, i understand now that stockpile limits is only about depleting rate and using the stock

i was thinking that stockpile techs were about how much you can move in stockpile (+ or -) so fearing it can be a max stocking flow limit

stocking heavy PP numbers is not necessary a bad thing if youre waiting for a major tech upgrade (new hull)

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Re: Reviewing the current Imperial Stockpile mechanics

#24 Post by Oberlus »

phocas wrote:stocking heavy PP numbers is not necessary a bad thing if youre waiting for a major tech upgrade (new hull)
It's a bad thing if the time you'll need to take them back is big enough. Example: You have 100 PP production and 10 PP stockpile use limit. If you let 50% of your PPs go into stockpile for 5 turns (250), you'll get 10 PPs back per turn from then on, so you'll have a +10% PP availability for 25 turns. So after 25 turns you'll have 11 instead of 10 (or whatever) ships. Not a great increase. But you could have had a pair more of older ships 25 turns sooner.
If you plan to make some heavy use of the IS, you need stockpiling species or stockpiling techs, set your capital(s) to stockpiling focus and build some stuff.
If you are Laenfa or Sly, with way better stockpiling output, it is a different story.

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Re: Reviewing the current Imperial Stockpile mechanics

#25 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Wed May 30, 2018 11:16 am I think this Stockpile Center is truly evil.
I "sneaked it in" as a test ballon to find out how "overpowered" it is as I was sceptical of the "imperial stockpile makes supply lines irrelevant" narrative.

The stockpile is in the game since over a year and we did not get any reports like "OMG imperial stockpile is so useful", "my enemy's imperial stockpile destroyed my game".

So the data suggests even the stockpile center is not overpowered in reality/in absolute terms. It is certainly overpowered in comparison to other sources of stockpile.

So if we rebalance I suggest to nerf stockpile center but buff other stockpile techs. Also stockpiling policy should be figured in.
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Re: Reviewing the current Imperial Stockpile mechanics

#26 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:52 amThe stockpile is in the game since over a year and we did not get any reports like "OMG imperial stockpile is so useful", "my enemy's imperial stockpile destroyed my game".

So the data suggests even the stockpile center is not overpowered in reality/in absolute terms.
I assume that is because people is not using IS at all, or they don't exploit it (AI certainly does not use it, and since most games are single player, you can't expect many "IS broke my game" reports).
We have not got any reports that stockpile centre is not overpowered neither.
I think the numbers I crunched in the quoted post are solid and coherent with the initial design goals that bypassing supply should require a sizeable commitment (you want to produce 200 troopers per turn behind enemy lines? you have to sacrifice PPs/RPs, and that is not true right now). Also, the reasoning about binding all pop-based stockpile bonuses to stockpile focus is sound.

Anyway, as long as those two issues (1. stockpile centre, a single building, gives you 10% of all empire's industry; 2. pop-based stockpile bonuses are not tied to stockpile focus) are addressed, I don't mind changing the bonuses each tech/building gives.

But to be clear: even if you nerf stockpile centre to give only 1%, or 0.1% of total industry, it would be bad (less use at start, still unbalanced later). I really think that kind of bonus should be removed.

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Re: Reviewing the current Imperial Stockpile mechanics

#27 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:52 am We have not got any reports that stockpile centre is not overpowered neither.
Well we got the reports from multiplayer community that nobody uses imperial stockpile for strategic purposes (i.e. it is useless).
Also people do not complain much about features that they do not use.

People tend to use any advantage they can muster. That is the baseline why micromanagement is an issue at all. I do not think you can seriously can argue that people will not use overpowered features. So I think from your argument only the single player one really holds as single player gamers may not see a overpowered feature as a bad thing and will not report.
Oberlus wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:52 amcoherent with the initial design goals that bypassing supply should require a sizeable commitment
That is already broken. Just use a stargate. You can transfer unlimited number of PP with that in a single turn.
Oberlus wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:52 am...Also, the reasoning about binding all pop-based stockpile bonuses to stockpile focus is sound.
You seem to defend your proposal against me.
To repeat: I think your analysis is really good. And I agree with your suggested nerf to the Stockpile Center (decoupling it from industry). Still I think the ballon was meaningful. After a year in use nobody complained about the stockpile center being OP in a game. For me that means your numbers about what is acceptable are rather on the cautious side.

Your proposal needs at least balancing and factoring in policy content. And in that balancing pass I suggest to balance the stockpiling effect also against stargates. The current stockpile center effect is puny compared to the power of a stargate/transformer. That probably means thinking about how to nerf stargates (e.g. stargate takes some turns to establish a link and show a warning to enemies in detection range before that happens).

And also note that a player will always prefer a supply-connected empire because of the all the supply-connection bonus. Its hard and costly enough to get a single black hole generator, asteroid refineries, and to collect growth specials and set planets to growth focus.

The stockpile effect should also be balanced against the supply-sharing effects of allied empires - looking at your multiplayer round I have a feeling supply-connection bonus will be expanded very soon to everything applicable. Maybe imperial stockpile could be an exit strategy from an intertwined allied empire. So be careful if your ally ups the stockpile techs ;)
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Re: Reviewing the current Imperial Stockpile mechanics

#28 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:50 pmWell we got the reports from multiplayer community that nobody uses imperial stockpile for strategic purposes (i.e. it is useless).
Also people do not complain much about features that they do not use.
You're right. I'm looking further beyond (and only because Geoff and Vezzra said that about not allowing to bypass the supply mechanics without sacrificing something). If/when people begins to use it, can they use it to bypass supply without sacrifice? And the answer (if you agree with the numbers above) is yes. And can we avoid that, without deteriorating IS legit uses (e.g. distributed empires, specailly for Sly)? And the answer again is yes. So I don't understand why not to go that way.
Also, even if people never uses IS for strategic purposes, why should we not change the figures as for my suggestion?

I remember one ¿concern? expressed by Jaumito (IIRC): high IS capabilities means you can't harass your enemy by blocking supply here and there. This affects players focusing on supply-connected empires. I think that is quite relevant.
Oberlus wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:52 amcoherent with the initial design goals that bypassing supply should require a sizeable commitment
That is already broken. Just use a stargate. You can transfer unlimited number of PP with that in a single turn.
Do you mean stargates connect supply groups? I didn't know that. But even if that is true, they would be breaking supply mechanics in a much less disruptive way than IS: with IS you can start pumping out whatever as soon as you finish the corresponding shipyards in your conquered planet behind enemy lines; with stargates you need to build the stargate first, which is costly and will take a fair amount of time if disconnected from a supply group, and it could be completely fixed by just removing that supply-connection-through-stargate.
If what you mean is that you can transfer whole fleets in a single turn, well, again you first need to finish the stargate, as per below (which is quite easier thanks to IS). And I've read about setting some kind of influence cost (or whatever) to use stargates if they are so powerful.

In any case, if something is broken, that is not a reason to support something else being broken. Both must be fixed.
your numbers about what is acceptable are rather on the cautious side.
Indeed. But I don't think that is bad, if they are also cautious to not nerf IS capabilities on early to mid game.

Your proposal needs at least balancing and factoring in policy content.
Agree, but policies don't seem to get into 0.4.9, while this could (and we would then have a year of feedback of the change). Moreover, what policies will do is, presumably, take some of the effects that currently are granted by the techs/buildings. If they are balanced before policies are introduced, that's half the work already done.

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Re: Reviewing the current Imperial Stockpile mechanics

#29 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:28 am
Ophiuchus wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:50 pm
Oberlus wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:52 amcoherent with the initial design goals that bypassing supply should require a sizeable commitment
That is already broken. Just use a stargate. You can transfer unlimited number of PP with that in a single turn.
Do you mean stargates connect supply groups?
No, no supply-group connection. You "save" any number of PP by building a fleet. You build a receiving stargate to send the fleet through. With the stockpile you can pull this off in enemy territory. Building at home and use a stargate is faster, safer and more effective than building the fleet inside enemy territory.

Note I didnt realise the cost for stargate went up. The investment is 500 PP for the stargate (600P for a transformer) and 8 turns I had in mind 100PP and fewer turns, the makes balance much more reasonable.
For doing the stargate/stockpile trick the fastest way you need 500PP/8turns so a stockpile extraction limit at 63.
Oberlus wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:28 amIn any case, if something is broken, that is not a reason to support something else being broken. Both must be fixed.
Agreed. The definition of broken is the question (how much PP transfer at what cost). And the balancing against fleet cost and stargates mostly.

In your mid game example you say use about one industry per pop, also one stockpile extraction for pop. Building a stargate and send a 500PP robo fleet will take about 10 turns and cost 1000PP. Building a 500PP robo fleet using imperial stockpile will take about 4+5+3==12 turns also cost 1000PP. In the first case you are faster and have an extra stargate for further use and 500PP makes for a puny four-robo fleet. Of course if there is infrastructure (shipyards), the imperial stockpile may have the timing edge here (3? turns for happiness and 3 turns for building). Note that you probably do not have stargate tech yet but i think it gives an idea how those two features compare.

Note that stockpile extraction is not cost effective here. You need to spend one industry to get one industry out (so only useful for building out-of-main-supply). So I would think 40PP cost at maximum for 80PP extraction limit for average species would be more like it.
Oberlus wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:28 am
your numbers about what is acceptable are rather on the cautious side.
Indeed. But I don't think that is bad, if they are also cautious to not nerf IS capabilities on early to mid game.
It must be possible to gain reasonable advantage by trading some kind of commitment. If it is only working for Sly it is underpowered.
Oberlus wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:28 am
Your proposal needs at least balancing and factoring in policy content.
Agree, but policies don't seem to get into 0.4.9, while this could (and we would then have a year of feedback of the change). Moreover, what policies will do is, presumably, take some of the effects that currently are granted by the techs/buildings. If they are balanced before policies are introduced, that's half the work already done.
Very reasonable, agreed.
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Re: Reviewing the current Imperial Stockpile mechanics

#30 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:36 amIt must be possible to gain reasonable advantage by trading some kind of commitment. If it is only working for Sly it is underpowered.
I've successfully made distributed stealth empires with Laenfa, too. Any good or great stockpile species can do that unless they are bad or average at stealth. For non-stealth species, it is also useful for faster expansion. I've done things like building next outpost waves on the outer, disconnected planets (instead of from main planets, further from borders). And for both non-stealth and stealth, it is good to bypass supply blockades during warfare. In late (laaate) game, every empire can do all this, even if bad stockpile.
All this regarding current implementation.

I forgot: regarding IS supply exploit, I think it is not about armed ships but troopers (that are cheaper and faster to produce), because once you get a strong enough (and fast) fleet behind enemy lines, you can keep conquering planets with troop reinforcements from recently conquered planets disconnected from supply. That's way faster than building stargates, and does not rely on defending the stargate.

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