First draft of my Build Queue Manager ready to post

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Thumper
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First draft of my Build Queue Manager ready to post

#1 Post by Thumper »

Hi All,

My first draft of my idea of a Build Queue Manager and Script File Generator is ready to post... only thing is I see nowhere to post a ".rtf" file. I NEED HELP! :D

What it includes:
1. Notes and more notes
2. Empire Economic controls
3. System and Planetary Economic controls
4. Empire Priority BQ controls
5. Planetary BQ structure

What it's missing:
1. Military BQMs ... Both Orbital and Surface based... (Plese read before commenting)
2. Fleet BQM.

I felt that it was far enough along to post it now rather than waiting for the missing items to fall into place.

Thanks to drek it can be found here:
EDIT to goto a .RTF file instead of the HTM page.
http://www.geocities.com/thumperfo/RTF_ ... r_V002.rtf

EDIT 2: This is a LARGE file... 330KB. Please allow some time for it to DL to your system.

EDIT 3: New version "V002" now available. "V001" is gone. Added Load, Save & Exit.

EDIT 4: Fixed the URL. Sorry all

Thumper
Last edited by Thumper on Thu Jul 24, 2003 3:06 am, edited 3 times in total.

Nightfish
FreeOrion Designer / Space Monster
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#2 Post by Nightfish »

Dunno if it's just me, but the file seems a little blank. Maybe the link is wrong?

Thumper
Space Kraken
Posts: 131
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 3:48 am

#3 Post by Thumper »

Nightfish wrote:Dunno if it's just me, but the file seems a little blank. Maybe the link is wrong?
:(

I go rigth to the DL screen when I click on the link. IF I rename it or move the DL folder it DLs just fine.

Might be because its "my" account.

Thumper

Nightfish
FreeOrion Designer / Space Monster
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#4 Post by Nightfish »

Now I know why it wasn't working. My browser said "done" but in reality I had to wait another 4 minutes for it to load, though it didn't tell me that. (Which seems logical the thing is about 64 ******* pages big.)

PowerCrazy
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#5 Post by PowerCrazy »

hmm.... So i guess this is just a set of ideas that you have thumper? Because there is A LOT that i dont agree with in there. Particularly, the leaders and the economics. Though the Build Queues make sense. But it seems like there is too much that you decided in there.
Aquitaine is my Hero.... ;)

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utilae
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#6 Post by utilae »

Quite alot of detail, it seems to cover more than just build queues.

Thumper
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#7 Post by Thumper »

PowerCrazy wrote:hmm.... So i guess this is just a set of ideas that you have thumper? Because there is A LOT that i dont agree with in there. Particularly, the leaders and the economics. Though the Build Queues make sense. But it seems like there is too much that you decided in there.
Would you please be specific? It would really help me if I got good specific feedback.


Thumper

Nightfish
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#8 Post by Nightfish »

My first feedback suggestion is: don't suggest 60+ pages of stuff all at once. That makes it very likely that most people will not even read completely through things before rejecting it. Also I'd say don't suggest more than one thing at a time in the same thread. That helps to avoid confusion when discussing stuff and people can reject or approve your ideas one at a time.

Thumper
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#9 Post by Thumper »

Nightfish wrote:My first feedback suggestion is: don't suggest 60+ pages of stuff all at once. That makes it very likely that most people will not even read completely through things before rejecting it. Also I'd say don't suggest more than one thing at a time in the same thread. That helps to avoid confusion when discussing stuff and people can reject or approve your ideas one at a time.
That is why I'm asking for people to not respond unless they are willing to take the time to read the document and follow the structure.

As for it being 60 plus pages long... There are a lot of notes... :D

As for it covering more than a single concept. It's a BQM and by defination that is going to be a very broad sweeping broom. It has to be in order to cover all that is necessary for it to do the job as I see it doing.

It was designed from the top down and that means the Empire first. And what does the Empire have to do with a BQM? Everything. It controls all of the Empire's MUs, and MUs are used to drive production. So first you have to devise a method of producing MUs for the Empire.

Once the Empire has its fair share of MUs you need some way of sharing that with newly developing planets.

And how are you controlling the planetary development... the BQM... So it only seemed logical that the BQM from the top also have controls for the Empire too.

I hope that you will take the time to read and follow the logic structure of the BQM. I think you'll see that it actually has the power to remove the micro management tedium from the game with respect to trying to controlling hundreds of planets every turn. And still gives the player that same depth control over what their Empire is doing at the planetary level.

I know that I've made some assumptions about the structure of the planets that may not be valid at this time. They seemed logical to me at the time of writing and I'm sorta working in a vacuum here with regard to what has been set in concrete and what is still open for discussion.

[OT]
The MBQMs and FBQM (Military & Fleet) will be simalar in design allowing the player to play the game without having to worry about what is happening each turn on every planet and every BQ. And while the MBQM will have the depth to design ships automatically, the player may override this and design their own ships, which the FBQM will use. And yet again the player has full control and may step in at any time and build Fleets of any size or makeup as want or need dictate.
[/OT]


Thumper

Nightfish
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#10 Post by Nightfish »

And you may have noticed that I did not comment on the things I have not read. I thought what I was trying to say is pretty obvious but apparently I was wrong.

I think it would have made more sense to talk about the general concept first and then come up with a full blown design document. As I said, I only glossed over the document and don't have time for a lot more right now. But still I do believe it would have been possible to talk about the basic idea first and in case it was well received specifics could be worked out. But in the end, I probably really could care less, I'm only trying to help you not waste your time.

The best I can offer you for now is that I'll not reject your idea before reading it. Not that my voice carried a lot of weight, but it's the gesture that counts, I think. :wink: I'll keep my nose out of the specifics of this discussion until I've either had time to read it or everyone else approves of your approval in which case I'd sort of have to take the time *g*

Thumper
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#11 Post by Thumper »

Ahhh.... but that is just the thing. I haven't tossed out a slab of concrete.

Please ALL, take it apart item by item and kick it around. It's only a draft and meant as a bassis of comment.

I'll be more than happy to incorporate improvements into new versions of it. :D


Thumper

drekmonger
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#12 Post by drekmonger »

I read it in it's entirety.

This document has nothing to do with FreeOrion. It doesn't use our planet sizes, enviroments, EP Wheel, or Economy system. Sliders abound. In fact, I think it has more sliders than Moo3's economy system.

As NF stated a 60 page document detailing your own little game doesn't really help. It would take too much effort to convert the ideas to FO. Anyway, the ideas contained are really way too complicated and Moo3-ish for my taste.
I think it would have made more sense to talk about the general concept first and then come up with a full blown design document. As I said, I only glossed over the document and don't have time for a lot more right now. But still I do believe it would have been possible to talk about the basic idea first and in case it was well received specifics could be worked out.
Yep. Listen to the fish.
Last edited by drekmonger on Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nightfish
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#13 Post by Nightfish »

Behold, drek is on my side for once. *g*

Thumper, you're still not getting what I mean: Of course you don't toss around concrete. None of us does. I'm going to try a final time to make my point:

You toss around 60+ pages of ideas at once. That is not helping. It does not make sense to go on an pick the thing apart item by item because we need to make another decision first:

Do we even want something like a build queue manager?

I don't really know what you're thingy will do in game, but I'm sure that could be summed up in less than 60 pages and discussed before submitting a complete design doc.

That's not an order or anything, that's simply what common sense tells me is best. Sorry for using bold and sounding harsh and stuff, but I don't know what else I can do to make you see my point...

Thumper
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#14 Post by Thumper »

drekmonger wrote:I read it in it's entirety.

This document has nothing to do with FreeOrion. It doesn't use our planet sizes, enviroments, EP Wheel, or Economy system.
What's in a planet size? Its not etched in stone. I just grabbed sizes from one to fifteen out of the air as a demonstration.

There is nothing dealing with planetary environments in the BQM document body. There was in one of the attachments... but that was only a reference and again nothing using acid on steel there.

EP Wheeeeeeel? Rolling, rolling, rolling Raw hide! :D

What Economy system? Seems to me that that is still being kicked around.

drek, I think you have your ideas and have closed your mind to new ideas. I hope I'm wrong!
Sliders abound. In fact, I think it has more sliders than Moo3's economy system.
I guess that is one way of inturpeting a "[0 - 100]%" or "[0 - 25]" box... it sure isn't what I meant tho. Please think type in number within the range of...
As NF stated a 60 page doument detailing your own little game doesn't really help.
What 'little game design"? It is only a way of managing a very tedious portion of a good game. I get the feeling that you are a big time micro manager and really enjoy going thru every planet and every Build Queue every turn of the game. I too enjoy micro managing... up to a point and then it gets very tiring and boring.
It would take too much effort to convert the ideas to FO.
You've got to be kidding! Right?
Anyway, the ideas contained are really way too complicated and Moo3-ish for my taste.
Is it really more complicated that the moddable tables that you guys are designing into FO?

The biggest problem with moddable tables is that they can't be altered mid game...

The basic BQM that I've proposed would allow a lot of what you are planning to be moddable to actually be adjusted in-game real time... :D

Ahhh! :( Just a matter of your personal taste. That is impossible to overcome without doing some serious surgery. :wink:

But you are right. I did take a lot of the structure from MoO3, and from MoO2, MoO, and Pax Imperia - Emenent Domain. As these are games that I enjoy. :D And for me they all start bogging down once you reach about 100 planets. PI the least bogging of all of them because of a fair PBQ system.

We all have our personal tastes. And life would be pretty boooooring if they were all the same. Its our differences that make us all great!


Thumper

Nightfish
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#15 Post by Nightfish »

Thumper: Not everything is being "just tossed around". The econ system is done and pretty much set in stone. Same thing for planet sizes. Yes, our minds are closed about things that are decided and that's a very good thing because we can't revisit each decision everytime a new idea pops up.

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