Collecting

Ablaze · **Posted:** Sun Sep 21, 2003 6:32 pm

I was thinking about MUDs. These are simple little text based games with few or no graphics. Many of them are repetitive, simplistic, and badly maintained. Nevertheless there are still dozens of MUDs out there with over a thousand active players.

Their success is probably based on quite a few factors, but I've played a few MUDs in my time and I've noticed one aspect which makes them particularly addictive: Collecting.

I remember one game in particular, Gemstone, in which you could buy a super weapon for, say, 1 million.. but an otherwise useless shirt with a description like, "Intricately embroidered with silver-laced hills over a moon-lit sky" would easily fetch 20 billion. Back in the day I found it hard to stop playing that game just because I had so much STUFF.. and in the end when I had saved up for several days and bought something new, I felt like I had done something rather then just wasting my time.

Back to the point: I think collecting could improve this game a lot, but for the life of me I can't think of any pervasive way to implement it. One way that many games implement collecting is through high score lists. The system for high scores should be as detailed and immersive as possible.. other then that I'm stumped.

Anyone else have any ideas?

PowerCrazy · **Posted:** Sun Sep 21, 2003 7:42 pm

Yes. I think a highscore list would be very good. Its always fun to see just how high of a score you can get. Then all we need to do is introduce an on-line score system and maybe have a few saved games that we challenge people to play, for score. We have to be careful that we avoid what moo2 did though. In that once you got all your planets to Gaia you could just click next turn and your score would go up several points a turn. And would only decrease one a turn... Oh well, I'm sure we could figure out something.

skdiw · **Joined:** Mon Sep 01, 2003 2:17 am **Posts:** 643

Omg, you guys actually take pride in high scores? You score 1,429,340 in Pac-man! For me, winning is all that matters and it's plenty of reward alone. Score system always suck as it can't take into account things like cleverness, resourcefulness, and other characters that have real meaning. You can always trick the system and optimize a game for it. I mean how do you score a comeback? for forming alliance through real life diplomacy in MP?

Collecting is good for RPGs and games like Diablo, but I doubt we will find a place here simply because if something cost more than what it's worth, then why get it? It's not like you build this secret which does nothing but gives you brag bonus so everyone else gets a -10 morale in real life. That might work for some ppl, but I don't get jealous if you beat me to be first to waste 1,429,340 pp and half your life doing so.

The only closest thing to collection is maybe building a galaxy-wide secret or a super-class Death Star that ppl are proposing.

I think most of the fun in collection is the random factor like getting something unique that only you have. We can do this by using random secrets so strategies might change from game to game because certain strategic resources isn't avaliable or some special bonus is unavaliable.

The highest victory is when victory is not even in the vocbabulary because wars and competition doesn't even exist. The second highest is when a benevolent empire is so great that other simply submit themselves ie. victory using pen. Still next highest is victory using tongue. After that is a quick victory using the sword. The worst victory is winning a long dragged-out bloodshed in your homeland.
-Sun Tzi (I pull this from memory so translations might suck)

Ablaze · **Posted:** Sun Sep 21, 2003 11:35 pm

I'm not sure what that last part was about. I would think the highest victory would launch you into space.. unless you are talking about some sort of pot smoking competition. ::shrug::

I can understand, skid, if winning is all that matters to you. I don’t know if anyone has ever told you this before, but some people don't share your preferences.

As far as high scores go, I think there should be a list of “world records.” Things like, “shortest time to build a behemoth class ship (in turns) by Skweeky_Da_Mouse: 443” or “Quickest empire to 7,000M pop by Dork_Vador: 366” Of course to truly hold the record against everyone else who plays the game you would have to create an empire with special racial picks that was designed to break that specific record.

Someone should be able to come up with a really good, non-highscore related, idea. Anyone?

Krikkitone · **Joined:** Sat Sep 13, 2003 6:52 pm **Posts:** 1274

Actually, One Idea that was cut from MOO3 was the 'Annals of Space and Time'. Basically, as you played the game, a 'galactic history text' was written out based around the events. (Similar to Civ's replay at the end of the game.)

If something like that could be implemented and saved with the score (even if it doesn't make it onto the High Score list), it would be nice. Other ideas include

-Seperate High score lists (most advanced technology, fastest technology, most well developed empire, least developed galaxy, most hated, most loved, unluckiest... etc.)

-Challenges (extended Civ II for me for a while, playing 0 taxes or Despotism throughout the game)

Ablaze · **Posted:** Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:20 am

Saved histories would be neat, and they could double as a reference for improving the AI (probably after version 1.0 is done.) I really like that challenges idea.. but I can't actually think of any challenges that wouldn't work as well or better as negative racial picks. Perhaps the challenges could be trying to win with more and more unused racial picks, or better yet particular, predefined, sets of racial picks.

Edit: I thought of a challenge.. random racial picks rather then you picking your favorite ones. You could also be thrown into the game without even knowing what your own race was good at.

On the other hand, that could also be a racial pick if, by selecting this option, the randomizer would award you one or two extra points.

That Guy · **Posted:** Mon Sep 22, 2003 1:02 am

Or, how about you have to do something to unlock something. People always love those, and it is the only reason people play the Mario games for Nintendo.

Like a new race, or a group of races, or a mission you have to do in the game, and get a new tech, or a single ship, or a wicked feature, just something you can work towards.

I should also be very public or no one would know about it.

skdiw · **Joined:** Mon Sep 01, 2003 2:17 am **Posts:** 643

How about the traditional campaign idea. Just make the latter stages next to impossible.

Blade Runner · **Joined:** Fri Sep 05, 2003 8:47 pm **Posts:** 53

I love to play TBS and RPG.

I like to collect everithing in RPG-s, but IMHO this type of games are like oil and water. One cannot mix it.

That Guy · **Posted:** Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:16 am

Btw, you can mix oil and water, with a really big HAMMER.

Anyways, y don't we do what warcraf 3 did to make the feel of RPG in a non RPG game.

Ablaze · **Posted:** Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:55 am

Speaking of Warcraft 3, does anyone know if it was a success fanatically? Do games publish that sort of info? I know which types of games get produced most often.. but I'm not sure if that correlates to which types are the most popular.

That’s a great idea about unlocking things, Guy. I was thinking that giving out prizes for winning games would be neat, but that puts a whole new spin on it.

I don't think any type of game has a monopoly on collecting. Some genres just have to be more inventive then others. I think it's worth the effort.. it adds little to no complexity and has the potential to make the game appeal to a much wider audience.

Krikkitone · **Joined:** Sat Sep 13, 2003 6:52 pm **Posts:** 1274

I personally feel rather strongly that no gameplay elements should be 'locked'. Maybe art (as in a new race becomes available.. but for gameplay purposes you could recreate that race using standard customization) or certain cut scenes, movies, etc. but never a gameplay element.

PowerCrazy · **Posted:** Tue Sep 23, 2003 4:13 am

Right. If anything is "locked" hard-to-do with an Opensource game BTW. It shouldn't be a super innovative empire manager device or anything. Maybe a new style of ships or a new color scheme or something, just for the sense of accomplishment, but really I don't think it would be necessary.

And about the RPG elements, they should not exists. Not in this type of game. I don't want to have a personal relationship with random guy b on the outskirt colony epsilon-delta 1b. I don't care about him and i don't WANT to care about him. The only types of individual things that should concern me would be my new Executor Sized uber ship and how it just destroyed my enemies homeworld. And even then that would just be a personal thing with me, some players might not care too much about their fleets flagship, and so no advantage should be conferred just for the sake of having it.

skdiw · **Joined:** Mon Sep 01, 2003 2:17 am **Posts:** 643

I am with the same side as Krik and PC. FO is not the same genre as RPG. I don't know if we even need a story or a campaign as it adds extra work when most ppl probably don't even read about the story or go through a campaign. Scores are silly unless it is very well balance, which, imo, is harder than balacing warcraft or starcraft.

@Ablaze
Blizzard is very wealthy. I think the two key developers have some crazy net worth of something like 50 millions! (don't quote me, the number is probably wrong but it's a lot) Warcraft 3 sold more than a million copies months ago. $50 x 1 M = 50 M and divide for retail markup for about 50% = 25 M for Blizzard. RTS isn't the most popular; I think the most popular PC game are first person shooters like Counter-Strike. I believe the future has something to do with mass MP like Everquest and ppl can make on their own realms with new rules/variants and pretty much play indefinitely.

Ablaze · **Posted:** Tue Sep 23, 2003 6:27 am

Like I said: I haven't heard actual figures.. but from what I've heard I got the impression that the return the developers get from the retail sales is something like 10% if they're lucky.

I think we can all agree that collecting in the RPG since would be out of place in this game.. although it is amusing to think of your mother ship and it's band of sidekicks going from world to world looking for a "+10 ring of healing."

Actually.. that form of collecting is rather reminiscent of the Antarian Xs in MOO3.

I was thinking of something like SMAC had, where a picture of your palace gains extra graphics when you accomplish things.. only in this game it would be upgraded when you beat the game in different ways.

FreeOrion

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