Racial Types and Tech

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Bigjoe5
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Racial Types and Tech

#1 Post by Bigjoe5 »

I don't know if this has been suggested before, but a conversation in the organic ships thread sparked this idea in my mind.

Each race belongs to a class of races with the same general characteristics, eg: humanoid, cybernetic, crystalline, etc.

My suggestion is that this class affects how quickly a race researches techs of a particular type. For instance, the number of research points required to research in computers would be lowered for cybernetic, construction for crystalline, biology for insectoid, etc. This way, empires could develop with a kind of personality based partially on their race type. If different ship types, such as organic, are included later in the tech tree, this would be a good way to make them more available to certain races without simply giving a free tech to certain races, or making a different type of ship the standard for each race type.
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Re: Racial Types and Tech

#2 Post by Rho »

I like the general idea here. Tho looking at our own civilization, I can't say for sure we (a carbon-based lifeform) has made the most progress in biology, as opposed to metallurgy or crystallography (crystal science). Also, life, just like computers, use electricity (or chemical energy in the case of plants), making energy science important to both.

I'd rather have science improve composition than composition boost science. Things we build from scratch are easier to understand and develop than the things we're made of. I assume another kind of being would suffer the same problem. But what we have learned in biology (especially medicine), we use to improve our health. What we learn of our bodies' electrical activity will likely yield health benefits. What we learn in information science would help us understand our DNA.

My idea is that rather than have humans build "human" ships and robots build "robot" ships, the technology directly relating to the species' composition would improve health.

--

As a side note, the civilization may be based around a particular kind of technology. We use metal a lot. Another civ might use silicon, another carbon... Each civ being based on a particular kind of technology revolving around the usage of a particular element or group of elements. We're into metallurgy and electricity and use both in our computers (along with the silicon-based microchip). Another civ might be more interested in using biological structures to house information, making biology the branch of science the civ is based on.

This is closer to Big Joe's idea, though it covers more than ships. I'd say each civ should have boosted research in their key branch or branches of science.
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eleazar
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Re: Racial Types and Tech

#3 Post by eleazar »

Bigjoe5 wrote:I don't know if this has been suggested before....
Yep, these ideas have been suggested before.

I know MoO3 had them, but i don't see any need to put races into classes, which all have similar effects. Why should 2 insect-like species both have the same advantage in biology— or whatever?

An exception is a class that actually had a variation on the rules. If we were to have a mechanical race which used minerals instead of food. But mechanical shouldn't effect any other aspect of the race, unless it was necessary to balance the mineral-eating aspect. For instance there's no reason all mechanical races should prefer the same planet type or excel in the same type of research.

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Re: Racial Types and Tech

#4 Post by Bigjoe5 »

eleazar wrote:I know MoO3 had them, but i don't see any need to put races into classes, which all have similar effects. Why should 2 insect-like species both have the same advantage in biology— or whatever?
Because, not having the same structure as a humanoid, they would be more likely to use other aspects of their biology to manipulate things. These aspects would have to include ways to perform very detailed work in order to build starships and what-not, and since they have no hands, the most logical explanation is that they have evolved in such a manner as to be able to alter the genetic make-up of living objects around them, perhaps by injecting some kind of mutating fluid through a bite or a sting or whatever, and thus "grow" their machines and tools instead of building them. They would, however, have the same metallic structures, because non-living matter tends to be much more common than living matter. Thus they would only grow factories to do the more detailed work for them.

This would obviously require an inherent understanding of certain principals of biology that would not come as fluidly to other races, thus they have a bonus researching in that catagory.

From the perspective of gameplay, rather than realism (which shouldn't really be a factor anyway), this type of race attribute would add to the uniqueness of each empire, thus adding fun and variety.
I didn't really like the way MoO3 did it, because they didn't allow the race type to be changed if you customized your race. The races in that game were really unbalanced. If it was in FO, it would naturally have to be adjustable via racial picks, the same as any other attribute. In fact, it's really just an excuse to have different empires having different research specialties, furthering the variety of the game, with no other effect on gameplay.
eleazar wrote:An exception is a class that actually had a variation on the rules. If we were to have a mechanical race which used minerals instead of food. But mechanical shouldn't effect any other aspect of the race, unless it was necessary to balance the mineral-eating aspect. For instance there's no reason all mechanical races should prefer the same planet type or excel in the same type of research.
Of course there's no reason at all that mechanical races should prefer the same planet type. That's absurd. But there is a very good reason that they should excel in the same type of research, because they themselves are machines, and thus will have a good example of machinery that they can base their research on. They would obviously have little skill in biology, because they literally don't have to know anything about biology to reach the point where they would go and explore space.
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Re: Racial Types and Tech

#5 Post by eleazar »

Bigjoe5 wrote:
eleazar wrote:I know MoO3 had them, but i don't see any need to put races into classes, which all have similar effects. Why should 2 insect-like species both have the same advantage in biology— or whatever?
Because, not having the same structure as a humanoid, they would be more likely to use other aspects of their biology to manipulate things. These aspects would have to include ways to perform very detailed work in order to build starships and what-not, and since they have no hands, the most logical explanation is that they have evolved in such a manner as to be able to alter the genetic make-up of living objects around them, perhaps by injecting some kind of mutating fluid....
(emphasis mine)

So logically there's only one reasonable way that an insect-like intelligent creature could develop technology, is through genetic manipulation? Even considering that of all known non-intelligent insects we have 0 that manipulate genes, and hundreds of ant/bee/termite etc. species that excel at massive construction projects using mandibles and feet?

Even if your link between insect-form & bio-manipulation was realistic it wouldn't matter. Realism isn't important to this game. If there was a compelling gameplay reason to link body-form and a tech proficiency, then we could do it, with or without a believable explanation.

But i haven't heard a reason linking these two aspects of a race together would make the game more fun.

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Re: Racial Types and Tech

#6 Post by Tortanick »

And of course no insect race could have hands like ours, or something equally flexible. *Looks at earth mamells*, nope no precident their for opposable thumbs being rare within a single kingdom. :roll:

Various traits may be race picks, aquatic may give +2 fighter combat because they think in 3d better than flatlanders but it's focused changes, it wont mean they have a different tech tree that all aqatic species share.

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Re: Racial Types and Tech

#7 Post by Bigjoe5 »

eleazar wrote:So logically there's only one reasonable way that an insect-like intelligent creature could develop technology, is through genetic manipulation? Even considering that of all known non-intelligent insects we have 0 that manipulate genes, and hundreds of ant/bee/termite etc. species that excel at massive construction projects using mandibles and feet?
If I really wanted to, I could make a realism argument for my idea based on the bolded part, but I'm not going to, because realism isn't really a factor and my post about DNA manipulating insects was total bs anyway. I only wrote it because your earlier post seemed to be somewhat geared towards realism.
eleazar wrote:Even if your link between insect-form & bio-manipulation was realistic it wouldn't matter. Realism isn't important to this game. If there was a compelling gameplay reason to link body-form and a tech proficiency, then we could do it, with or without a believable explanation.

But i haven't heard a reason linking these two aspects of a race together would make the game more fun.
You appear to have missed the parts of my post that weren't to do with realism.
Bigjoe5 also wrote:From the perspective of gameplay, rather than realism (which shouldn't really be a factor anyway), this type of race attribute would add to the uniqueness of each empire, thus adding fun and variety.
If certain races have tech specialties, it gives the game more variety. In the same way that some players will focus more on construction or on espionage, the player has the option of choosing a race that specializes in Biology or Construction. It's another way to add variety, therefore increasing replay value. And even if someone only ever plays as one type of race with only one strategy for all his games, it's more fun for him to meet a greater variety of emperors with different strategies.
Tortanick wrote:Various traits may be race picks, aquatic may give +2 fighter combat because they think in 3d better than flatlanders but it's focused changes, it wont mean they have a different tech tree that all aqatic species share.
Nobody said anything about a different tech tree for each racial class. Or any different attributes except skill in a certain area of research.
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Re: Racial Types and Tech

#8 Post by Rho »

Take your pick. If time and evolution is how all lifeforms on our planet became what we are today, evolution can create any combination of those elsewhere, including insects with hands. If an act of God, plus sin and time, is how all lifeforms on our planet became what we are today, God (plus sin and time) can create any combination of those elsewhere, including insects with hands. If some other means is how all lifeforms...some other means can create any combination...including... You get the idea. :)

That an Earth creature lacks features doesn't mean its alien look-alike lacks those also. Technically, that argument might (hypothetically) be used to disqualify humans, from an alien POV with alien references.

Enough about that.

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A civ essentially needs three types of advanced technnology: power, construction and information storage.

Earth seems to be leaning towards nuclear and possibly fusion power, we use metal in our constructions, and run our computers with electricity conducted by metal. Many metals are durable.

Another civ might use solar power and advanced forms of photosynthesis and renewable and more effective biological fuels than we've got. They might grow their buildings, maybe grow biological computers as well. Their stuff would regenerate.

Yet another civ might use radiation of different kind as a source of power. They might grow crystalline structures. We know of optical information transfer, and CDs are optical storage units. Why not make their entire computers optical? Crystals are hard, and crystals grow. A bit of both worlds.

--

Here we have the beginnings of three distinct tech trees. That could pose a problem. Incorporating each of these into the same tech tree, where only some technologies differ depending of the civ would make the game more balanced, at least further on when the crystal ships and the metal ships both fire superplasma pulses and are protected by Mk VI quarkphase shields.

After all, technology is adapted from science, so adapting, from the same science, to another kind of technology makes sense, given that someone knows how the other kind of technology works. Take information compression: we can do it on a digital computer - we do it automatically in our heads - it can probably be done with crystals as well.

With a few research items bridging the gaps, the three types could share everything after half the tech tree, and share everything but those crystal/metal/bio-specific items before that.

Also, it would make sense to assume biological weapons are most effective against biological ships and structures, whereas weapons aimed to destroy metallic structures and ships would be most effective doing just that. A biological virus or coral/lichen eating through the hull, and energy weaponry, respectively. Crystals, I assume, would be most vulnerable to explosives. This gives each civ a reason to research the others' technology as well, when possible - to develop weapons to defend themselves with. This adds strategy - to improve your own tech or to study the tech of the enemy.

--

Select race.
Name your civ.
Basis for technology: (crystal/biological/metal)

As simple as that.
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.rho

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Re: Racial Types and Tech

#9 Post by Bigjoe5 »

That's a very interesting variation of my idea. It might not add as much variety, though, if there are more than 3 different types of tech. Plus it has a certain element of multiple tech trees that everyone here seems intent on avoiding.... I think I prefer the idea of every race having the same tech tree, but accelerated tech. Different tech trees are harder to balance, than just accelerated research in one area, esp. if we can just balance them with the number of picks.
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Re: Racial Types and Tech

#10 Post by Tortanick »

Bigjoe5 wrote: If certain races have tech specialties, it gives the game more variety. In the same way that some players will focus more on construction or on espionage, the player has the option of choosing a race that specializes in Biology or Construction. It's another way to add variety, therefore increasing replay value. And even if someone only ever plays as one type of race with only one strategy for all his games, it's more fun for him to meet a greater variety of emperors with different strategies.
But that doesn't mean all insects must focus on biology because their insects. Ants could focus on human-style metalwork while wasps use genetic manipulation.

The idea of having specialisations in one area of science, or even separate tech trees for different races has enough merit to be considered. (just don't expect to see the latter pre 1.0), The idea of deviding races into categories like insect, crustation, microbiology has no real value.

Because they are so tiny I'd expect microbiology empires to have significant ground combat bonuses, but I don't see why they'd ALL have to use genetic manipulation rather than metal.

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Re: Racial Types and Tech

#11 Post by Bigjoe5 »

Tortanick wrote:But that doesn't mean all insects must focus on biology because their insects. Ants could focus on human-style metalwork while wasps use genetic manipulation.
That seems like a realism argument to me. As for gameplay, the reason is clear. There's no reason for us to distinguish between ants and wasps.
Tortanick wrote:The idea of having specialisations in one area of science, or even separate tech trees for different races has enough merit to be considered. (just don't expect to see the latter pre 1.0), The idea of deviding races into categories like insect, crustation, microbiology has no real value.
The reason is that it is a pretense for specializing in technology. It makes it more intuitive for the player for there to be a reason. I didn't actually suggest different tech trees, but I guess it's worth discussing, just not right now.
Tortanick wrote:Because they are so tiny I'd expect microbiology empires to have significant ground combat bonuses, but I don't see why they'd ALL have to use genetic manipulation rather than metal.
If it's all going to be included in one pick, I think it would be easier to balance if it was only a research bonus. The other traits would be included in seperate picks anyway, but we could have additional attributes if everybody thinks it's a good idea.
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Re: Racial Types and Tech

#12 Post by Tortanick »

Bigjoe5 wrote:
Tortanick wrote:But that doesn't mean all insects must focus on biology because their insects. Ants could focus on human-style metalwork while wasps use genetic manipulation.
That seems like a realism argument to me.
No, its a pro creativity argument. It lets the designer of an insect race use whatever technological specialisations they want. If I want to make an race of Ants that make spaceships out of rock, saliva and quantum manipulating religious symbols I don't see why I should be unable to because "insects use genetic manipulation"
Bigjoe5 wrote:As for gameplay, the reason is clear.
no its not
Bigjoe5 wrote:There's no reason for us to distinguish between ants and wasps.
That's like saying there is no reason to distinguish between Humans and Greys.
Bigjoe5 wrote:
Tortanick wrote:The idea of having specialisations in one area of science, or even separate tech trees for different races has enough merit to be considered. (just don't expect to see the latter pre 1.0), The idea of deviding races into categories like insect, crustation, microbiology has no real value.
The reason is that it is a pretense for specializing in technology.
That pretence can be written into the race description on a race by race basis. There is no reason to make all plant races use organic technology when some people want to write a cyborg plant race (I already have, its in the story board)
Bigjoe5 wrote:
Tortanick wrote:Because they are so tiny I'd expect microbiology empires to have significant ground combat bonuses, but I don't see why they'd ALL have to use genetic manipulation rather than metal.
If it's all going to be included in one pick, I think it would be easier to balance if it was only a research bonus. The other traits would be included in seperate picks anyway, but we could have additional attributes if everybody thinks it's a good idea.
Its not all going to be included in one pick, microbiology races will have ground combat bonuses because most creators will choose to give them that, its a logical result of them being so small. Being microbiological dosn't mean they _have_ to have a ground combat bonus. Races arn't given a category and a set of bonuses and penalty's that go with that category, they are given the bonuses and penalties their creators think that are appropriate. Even some of the more noticeable traits like Lithovore (eats minerals) are avalible to any race who's creators think it would be appropriate for, sure most of them will be Silicon based or Robots. but they don't all have to be, and Robots don't have to be Lithovores either (bender isn't)

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Re: Racial Types and Tech

#13 Post by Bigjoe5 »

Are you talking about a designer designing a race or a player designing a race? I am talking about the latter. And if you want to design a cyborg plant race, you can select both "plant" and "cybernetic" as racial picks.

If you really feel that strongly about it, let's just ditch the window dressing and get to the core of the idea: Racial types aside, should there be an option for the player to have accelerated research in certain fields depending on what race he picks or how he chooses to customize his own? i.e. should there be a set of "research focus" picks?

The reason I would like to use race types to "disguise" these picks is that it's an reason to give to the player and it eliminates the need to have a bonus/penalty option for every single tech type if ws just have a few set combinations of tech bonuses/penalties for the player to choose from.
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Re: Racial Types and Tech

#14 Post by Tortanick »

Bigjoe5 wrote:Are you talking about a designer designing a race or a player designing a race? I am talking about the latter. And if you want to design a cyborg plant race, you can select both "plant" and "cybernetic" as racial picks.
I'm talking about both, and rather than picking plant and cybernetic I'm much happier choosing what that means myself, and giving the bonuses and penalties I feel are appropriate.
Bigjoe5 wrote:for the player to have accelerated research in certain fields depending on what race he picks or how he chooses to customize his own?
I like that idea, although looking at the tech tree, the various fields would probably be "Growth" and "Industry" rather than metal and biology.
Bigjoe5 wrote:The reason I would like to use race types to "disguise" these picks is that it's an reason to give to the player and it eliminates the need to have a bonus/penalty option for every single tech type if ws just have a few set combinations of tech bonuses/penalties for the player to choose from.
We don't need to disguise anything, I don't see a problem with bonus/penalty in every area, or research specialisation would be a side effect, good farmers get a bonus to research in growth.

And if you really need to desiguse, use a pick like biology specialist as opposed to insect, that way the crystal race can use it if they want.

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Re: Racial Types and Tech

#15 Post by Bigjoe5 »

"Biology Specialist" doesn't really get rid of needing more picks....but really, the player having more options is a good thing, now that I think about it. As far as that goes, I think we've reached an agreement.

The only difficulty I see is in how to implement it. Should there be a big section from which the player can just choose which fields his race will have double tech, which will have half tech? Should there be smaller increments? Would the player be able to choose 1 modifier from each field, or will some be mutually exclusive? I think only modifiers for the same field should be mutually exclusive.

Anyway, whatever we decide here is going to have to be dug up centuries later for (I think) v.8 and discussed exhaustively, so what we decide on won't make a lot of difference.
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