Nature of the Combat map

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

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Impaler
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#16 Post by Impaler »

I remember reading about that Exit wide/exit narrow thing in Moo3 and its sounded good too bad they droped it.

I guess we need to deside a few basic things first.

1 - Will their be any advantages/disadvantages for attacking ships reach a system by Star Lanes vs Deep Space "off road" travel? Effects might include things like changing starting position of attackers or defenders. Or altering the Stealthing abilites of the attacker.

I think off road travel should have the attacker entering on any point on the Rim of the system map. Espacing to Deep Space would be done the same way.

2 - If there is a difference dose it take the form of a Star Lane having a small fixed entry point much like a worm hole? This choke point would significantly add to the defencability of starlane based attacks (which I belive many anti-Starlane people will dislike because the felt SLanes make the game overly defensive).

Also I would like to make note of the fact that I am totaly oposed to any Random Ship Placement for any combat. This is a strategy game and people will be rightfully pissed if their ships are placed in stupid locations. A pre-combat placement phase is the best way to go as it puts all the desision making with the player.
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snakechia
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#17 Post by snakechia »

I think having multiple planets in a map will negatively impact battle. It would mean that the Defender has to defend every planet at once...meaning that the defender would need many more ships than the attacker...which maybe realistic, but not fun. I mean, the attacker could make 5 small squadrons and send one at every planet...the defender would have no chance to intercept all 5 unless he had a larger fleet.

jbarcz1
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#18 Post by jbarcz1 »

Well, if the two fleets were evenly matched, the defender could split his fleet as well, and keep in mind he's also got planetary defenses and whatever orbitals we have to help him out.

If the attacker wants to split up like that, then he's going to do a lot less damage to each of the targets, and if he stays concentrated, then he's easy to intercept.
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Impaler
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#19 Post by Impaler »

Well the defender can divide his forces into 5 parts, and rember their are space stations and missle Bases so each fifth of the attacers force is going to be even more out numbered then if he went at one planet. The only advantage the Attacker gets is to be able to go after other planets in the System after he has glassed one, in Moo2 you need to use a whole other turn to attack each planet even after the defending fleet is gone.

You beat me too it! :(
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utilae
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#20 Post by utilae »

snakechia wrote:I think having multiple planets in a map will negatively impact battle. It would mean that the Defender has to defend every planet at once...meaning that the defender would need many more ships than the attacker...which maybe realistic, but not fun. I mean, the attacker could make 5 small squadrons and send one at every planet...the defender would have no chance to intercept all 5 unless he had a larger fleet.
There may be occasion where the attacker finds himself between two or more planets, so the attacker would be stretched between attacking many planets, while they are firing at him.

eg. 1 ship could be attacked by two planets at once, twice the trouble now. The ship can't deal with them one at a time (attacking 1 and avoiding the other). The attacker could avoid such situations, depending on their flightpath.

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#21 Post by jbarcz1 »

utilae wrote:
snakechia wrote:I think having multiple planets in a map will negatively impact battle. It would mean that the Defender has to defend every planet at once...meaning that the defender would need many more ships than the attacker...which maybe realistic, but not fun. I mean, the attacker could make 5 small squadrons and send one at every planet...the defender would have no chance to intercept all 5 unless he had a larger fleet.
There may be occasion where the attacker finds himself between two or more planets, so the attacker would be stretched between attacking many planets, while they are firing at him.

eg. 1 ship could be attacked by two planets at once, twice the trouble now. The ship can't deal with them one at a time (attacking 1 and avoiding the other). The attacker could avoid such situations, depending on their flightpath.
I think we aught to balance things so that this situation can't happen very often. having lots of planets in the system shouldn't create this much of a tactical advantage.
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tsev
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#22 Post by tsev »

jbarcz1 wrote:
utilae wrote:
snakechia wrote:I think having multiple planets in a map will negatively impact battle. It would mean that the Defender has to defend every planet at once...meaning that the defender would need many more ships than the attacker...which maybe realistic, but not fun. I mean, the attacker could make 5 small squadrons and send one at every planet...the defender would have no chance to intercept all 5 unless he had a larger fleet.
There may be occasion where the attacker finds himself between two or more planets, so the attacker would be stretched between attacking many planets, while they are firing at him.

eg. 1 ship could be attacked by two planets at once, twice the trouble now. The ship can't deal with them one at a time (attacking 1 and avoiding the other). The attacker could avoid such situations, depending on their flightpath.
I think we aught to balance things so that this situation can't happen very often. having lots of planets in the system shouldn't create this much of a tactical advantage.
If the defender adequately defends his planets with planetary based weapons, a small squadron of ships shouldn't pose a threat. If you've got a system with lots of colonies, then it makes sense to try to defend it with a huge fleet to prevent just this sort of attack. I don't really think its a matter of balance, I think its a matter of strategic planning.
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jbarcz1
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#23 Post by jbarcz1 »

I was referring to the situation where two or three planets could fire on a ship at the same time. I dont really think we should let that happen. Not with beams anyway. Missiles and fighters would be ok, because they'd take time to hit and you could take measures to deal with them.

If you have five planets in the system and they can all blast the enemy fleet at once with beams, then that gives the defender a huge tactical advantage for having multiple planets. IMO this is unrealistic, and not that much fun either.

EDIT: My concerns are based on how powerful planetary defenses were in Mid game MOO2-MOO3. If we weakened the defenses a bit, that would help balance things out.
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#24 Post by Impaler »

Well we just make the range of planetary weapons lower then the minimum distance between planets on the map DUUUUU!!!

Ofcorse MOONS should be able to protect their planets.

Infact I have been thinking that System map generation should be linked to the Galaxy Generator. Basicaly the Galaxy generator puts stars on the Galaxy map and then within the Combat map of that Star it randomly drops planets one by one. The Combat map would be divided into Concentric Ring zones like a tree. When a planet drop lands in one of these zones its type (swamp, destert, radiated) and size get desided by a table that takes into account the star type and the zone its in. The inner zones have hotter planets the outer zones are colder. After each planet is placed theirs some Random moons are placed around the planet within a short radius. And lastly a Radius larger then the moon radius plus the whole Ring Zone the planet was in are declared off limits to further Planet drops. The program keeps droping planets and moons untill we reach the desired number of planets for the system, which is desided randomly.

Nothing would be too close to anything else and apropriate planets would be filling each zone. Each system would be unique and unpredictable. The Ring Zones could provide paths for planetary orbits if we want the planets to move each Galactic turn (Actualy I prefer they just sit still for tacticaly simplicity purposes)
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discord
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#25 Post by discord »

impaler: there are several 'engines' for generation of star systems already done, and you are not taking eccentric orbits into account here, several(up to 5 actualy, with some help, it's called a ....something knot...or something like that.) planets could actualy be in the same orbital distance, but at different angle's and never bother each other.

3d is the way to go.

//discord

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utilae
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#26 Post by utilae »

jbarcz1 wrote:I was referring to the situation where two or three planets could fire on a ship at the same time. I dont really think we should let that happen. Not with beams anyway. Missiles and fighters would be ok, because they'd take time to hit and you could take measures to deal with them.

If you have five planets in the system and they can all blast the enemy fleet at once with beams, then that gives the defender a huge tactical advantage for having multiple planets. IMO this is unrealistic, and not that much fun either.

EDIT: My concerns are based on how powerful planetary defenses were in Mid game MOO2-MOO3. If we weakened the defenses a bit, that would help balance things out.
I supose you would have to be careful and balance the game. But it would be strategically important if planets weapons had a long enough range that two planets could both target a nearby fleet. So depending on whether you decide to take your fleet through the middle of four planets or go around the sides of planets, ie taking them out one at a time, then it would be ok. It would be strategic, depending on where you enter the battle field as well.

I don't think we should limit the range of planets, but make sure weapons are not going to be fatal to a group of ships, being fatal to one would be ok.

You oculd have a situation like this:
*=space
O=Planet
A=good path for ships
B=bad path for ships

****************
******O*****O***
****************
****************
***O*****B***O*
****************
*A**************
****************
Assuming all planets have the same range, which = ** or 2 space units
&
Your fleet has to be within ** or 2 space units range:
As you can see, starting at A and taking your fleet around attacking planets in a clockwise direction would be better than rushing into the middle (at B) and attacking any old planet.

@Impaler
I like your idea, it's pretty cool.

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#27 Post by jbarcz1 »

As long as we can prevent a situation where the attacker is routinely attacked by multiple planets and suffers heavy losses, that's fine with me. Whether we do that by enforcing distances between planets or by limiting the weapons, either way will work.
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Sidewalker
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#28 Post by Sidewalker »

Assuming that light goes from Sun to Earth for 8 minutes, having multiple planets on the battlescreen firing beams at the one enemy is very funny.

"Let's make forestalling for 4 minutes... I think their fleet go left some time later..."
KABOOM! KABOOM! KABOOM!
"Yeah, that was the good one!.."
"E-er... We just shoot our friendly planet's moon down... I think they became little bit upset now..."
"Alrigthy then! Let fire our 3K-missles valley to that darn fleet!"
WHOOOSH! WHOOSH! WHOOSH!
"Whoohooo! Death to them! Let'go! Have some beer! Missiles will arrive in two week... We've got some time..."
zzz...zzzz....zzzzz..... Ahem! 8-0 Who's there?!

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