FreeOrion

This was debated alot on the old delphi moo3 boards.

My proposal would to have both! When a crew is formed it starts off with some training and experince points. (Racial picks would influence this) As long as the # of training and experince points are close to equal, the crew will get full bonuses from each. But if one exceeds the other then the crew would get a reduced bonus from the excess.

It could go something like this :

A starting crew starts off with 10 training and 10 experince points. They get parked in a system with a training building until their train points reach 100.
The effective # of training points they would have would be :
10 for the first 10 points of experince
+9 for "excess" training points. (90 excess training / 10 experince)

Note: the same would be true if experince was higher than trainning!

It's important to have differing bonuses/penalties for training and experince. A high training could give stuff like: improved turning, quicker refire rates, battlefield rapairs, better sensor readings, etc.

While a high experince rating would give stuff like: better initative, improve odds of hitting/avoid getting hit, better bonuses from "terrian", better at boarding actions.

Hm, it seems to me it's more like experince gives you all of the stuff, while training can improve only some attributes, and only to some degree. And you're forgetting one of the most important factros, morale. If the troops panick no training will save you. And you can't train them not to panick, only real battle expericnce would help.

Each race could have an attribute called potential which determines the max level training can achieve.

An idea: We divide battle experience from training.

Battle exp: green, experienced, veteran, warriors, (great warriors);
Training: militia, regular, special, elite;

Each ship/legion has a manpower cost beside the equpment cost, say 10 AU per 100 size units of a ship/per legion. To get reulars you need to pay 20 more Au, or 30 AU in total. To get the next level 40 more AU, or 70 AU in total. You can pay for the improvement at any point. For every 4 points of battle exp one trainig point is gained. Numbers are there simply to illustrate my point.

Warlord pick: start from experienced, can become great warriors.
Potential pick: training costs halved.
Adaptable pick: you get training exp from battle exp twice as fast.

Say to train directly to the regular level you need something like marine baracks, to train special forces you need special barracks. And there might be some special (matrix-simulation type) building that allows you to train troops one level of Battle exp higher that the race default.

Why not simply make your troop rating a function of both training and experience? You should be able to compensate poor training with battle experience and vice versa.

TroopRating = Training + Experience

Experience is accumulated by actual fighting: damaging and destroying enemy units, being hit and getting away with it, and maybe even just surviving a battle. The experience amount gained could also be modified by the odds of the engagement so that beating up weaker enemies won't give you as much experience than being bloodied against stronger ones. Also, some race picks could give you an automatic initial amount of experience simulating warlike races.

Training is gained by assigning troops and ships to training facilities that you can build. Technology advancements give you more training facilities and an individual ship or fighting unit can go through a particular training facility only once. Training costs money and takes time meaning that the unit is unavailable for a few turns.

Conjuring up figures to make an example:



Empire A didn't bother investing in troop training facilities and just conscripts as it needs. Originally it's 1st Space Fleet consisted of 80 ships. Due to heavy fighting it has lost 40 ships but in the process its ships have accumulated battle experience on the average 250 points. Some more and some less. Most of the ships in the fleet are thus of the Regular troop rating level.

Empire B has been mostly at peace since the beginning so its battle experience is basically non-existent averaging to 20 or 30 points. However, Empire B thinks military training is an important issue and thus has built barracks, military training camps, space academies, etc. After being built all ships are routinely sent through the above training facilities so that after consuming a considerate amount of money and turns the ships join the Space Forces with 200 training points. The troop rating level is therefore Regular.

In the above we have two different strategies amounting to the same result. Both empires get the same combat rating, but A does it by spending ships (constant battle) whereas B spends money and time (training).

Of course, after B's fleet has gone through a war or three its ships have got both the training and the experience. OTOH A got its troops initially cheaper and faster. Which is a better strategy I think depends on how you intend to use your troops.

Wouldn't it be better if we had two values that affect different combat ratings? Btw, I'd like to see experience for ground troops also.

So so far we have three factors:
-Experience-combat ability gained in actual combat
-Training-combat ability gained through 'practice' combat
-Potential-reflects maximum achievable level reachable

Experience and Training: Really you need both, without one, the other will not be very good. Imagine a very experienced soldier that was never trained to use a gun. He would have a hard time using a gun at first, but eventually would get the hang of it. A properly trained soldier would know certain close combat moves, while the experienced, but untrained soldier does not.

Combat ability = Experience + Training

Potential: It would be a races trait, determining the maximum level a soldier can be trained to or gain experience to get to a certain level.

Potential = 5, then soldiers can be trained up to level 5 before needing experience to go further up in levels.

So maybe A soldier has to get a certain level in training, then they can't go any further, unless they get up to the same level in experience. The same could work the other way around.

Theirs no need to seperate Experince Level or points from Combat experience.

Both Combat and Training achive the same ends. They teach the soldiar to efficiently and reliably do what is needed to kill the enemy. Training dose this by repetedly creating simulated fake battles by the aplication of time and money. The major advantage is that the soldiar is not getting killed. Throwing untrained soldiars into combat ultimatly achives the same ends and is "free" with the serious side effect that many of them will be killed before advancing.

So what we have is

Racial Bonus + Training Points + Combat Points = Experience Level
Experience + Current Morale = Combat Power


Potential would refer to the total maximum Experience. So a race with a maximum Potential of 5 can reach level 5 experience by any combination of Training and or Combat.

I belive Training Facilites should follow in the foot steps of the Ship Yard Princile. In other words they are EXPENCIVE and RARE. Your whole empire might have just a 2 or 3. (theirs only 1 StarFleet accadamy in starTrek) each Facility has a maximum level to which it can raise a Unit. A level 3 Facility can turn level 2 soldiars into level 3 but it can do nothing to a level 3 or higher unit. Higher level training Facilites are expodentialy more expensive so low level faciliteis may be common but high level ones rare.

Its also wise to give the training Facility a maximum rate of training (thier are only so many positions in each class). Say for example a Barracks can raise 3 soldiars 1 level each per turn. Once they reach the maximum of the Facility or the Races maximum potential they stop advancing.

_________________
Fear is the Mind Killer - Frank Herbert -Dune

I was thining that we have two levels:
-Training
-Experience

Facilities like a baracks would improve a soldiers Training level.
Battle would improve a soldiers experience level.

Then you have potential.
Potential determines the maximum amount of training you can have before reaching the same level in experience, this works vice versa.

So:
Soldier-Potential=5
Soldier trains up to level 5 (potential), but can't advance further in training unless the soldier reaches level 5 in experience. When the soldier is level 5 in training and level 5 in experience, they can go up 5 more levels in training before needing 5 more levels in experience to further improve training.

I agree with Pembroke, we should aply the KISS principle here.

Training and Combat are just 2 ways to raise the same atribute.

Its a bit like SMAC, some factions manufacture their units with a better initial experience level. Getting better Facilites can make the units stronger and all units will advance as they fight.

Adding the consept of Potential is nice idea as it will help distinguish the war like races from the peacefull ones. Races with High potential would probably also have a high starting Racial Bonus so they are superior throughout the whole course of the game.

And I belive someone mentioned ground vs Space combat power being different. That too is a good idea but it would just be the natural result of making Ground combat Legions (I think that sound better then "army") have their own experiences. The system would work the same but the Legions experience is independent of the ships that carry it. So it would be possible to have Green Ships carry Veteran Legions. Ofcorse training facilites would be divided into 2 types, Ground and Space.

_________________
Fear is the Mind Killer - Frank Herbert -Dune

Can't argue you there. After all both are in their way methods to "train combat skills". The hard way just has a higher class drop off rate.

About Training Facilities:

We are going to have some ways to assemble ships into groups/fleets/taskforces and ground forces into armies, right?. Could this principle be used in the training process, too?

I mean that strictly from the game mechanics point of view a Star Fleet Academy could be just like your standard fleet. (You'd still have to build the facilities etc.) You added ships into it and removed them from it anytime you like. The only difference is that you couldn't actually move this pseudo fleet anywhere, its maximum size would be tied to the training facility level you had built, and its maintenance cost would be double or triple or even more compared to a regular fleet. Each turn this "training fleet" would fight a mock battle behind the screens against a standard foe, i.e. the computer just calculates the outcome adding battle experience points to the ships just like in a normal battle (or perhaps at a reduced rate as this is just training) and all ships "destroyed" would of course still be there. Once the ships reached their maximum training level allowed by the facility they would be returned automatically to your reserves making way for you to add new green ships into training.

With this kind of system you could re-use other existing game objects and concepts to implement the training process meaning there would be less work to do which is always a bonus in a programming project.

And of course the same principle can be applied to your ground troops. There your Ground Combat Training Center would function like an army of some defined size depending on the facility level fighting mock battles analoguos to your Star Fleet Academy.

Interesting Idea Pembroke

I am not shure if we are going to have reserves though, I never played Moo3 myself but in general I dont like the idea of Reserves as it puts the ships in a state of "Limbo" from which they can "apeare" out of thin air (um space) when you want them with a few turns delay.

I would prefer some kind of system that puts a ship/task force in a special state in a particular system, Maintance costs are altered and I get some special bonus too. So Lets say I have several Task Forces in A star system, I could set one to Patrol (more likly to detect enemy ships, higher maintanace), another in MothBall (greatly reduce Maintanace), another on Training (Incressed Maintance for all thouse books and Pencils), Another on Stand By (Regular Maintance). Each ship/task Forces has a definate location at all times.

If this is the Case then you can conduct Training only when in a system that Contains a Training Facility (if we alow ships to contain any type of "building" as has been sugjested then a large Mother Ship could hold a training Facility alowing you to train your ships as you go).

Likewise Troops need to be on a Planet with the Apropriate Facilites (Putting a Ground Training Facility inside a Ship sounds weird though so maybe this is not allowed).

So it would work like this. New units start with just the racial Bonus, they would then get placed in systems that contain the apropriate facilites and set to "Training" after they graduate (reach the maximum level the Facility can raise them too) they are reset to "Stand By" ready for the player to send them off to Die in the War against the Cynos. Or if the player gets Desperate he can take them out of training Early and send them to die even worse.

_________________
Fear is the Mind Killer - Frank Herbert -Dune

Training and simulations are all fine, but I still think you should factor in real combat experience. It's one thing to fight in a simulation, you know you are safe and in a controlled environment. While real combat is pure chaos a game with death. Nothing can prepare the soldier well enough for real combat. That would apply most to ground troops, less so to fighter pilots and least to large ship crews.

I am not making a realism argument. I think real combat experience seperate from combat trining would really add to the game. It just gives you a different feel, when your crew survives battle after battle under your command, slowly becoming better and better soldiers. While if you can just train any crew to that level, it all loses its meaning. We might as well just remove experience if you gan get the crew to any degree of experince without even risking them!

Umm, Ender's game? It was a space station but still

In my proposal about the sepeate ratings for training and experience I mentioned that in battle you would gain both, but experience a few times slower, while in training you would gain only, umm, training, if you're not some kind of a race that practices gladiator fights (warlord)

The battle experience that I want would realte solely to morale. Now, this is assuming we have something like morale - I think it's a must at least for ground troops, if we have a more detailed GC system than the MOO 1/2 one. But it would be great if we have it for ship crews and fighter pilots also. (btw morale need not depend only on battle exp, of course).

To sum up: you gain both types of exp in battle. The seperate exp for morale you gain only in battle (unless you're warlord). The usual one both in training (up to the potential, that's a good idea) and battle.

Let me try to define what I meant by training and experince.

Training points represents the crew's knowledge of their ship. That is, techical know how. To use a Star Trek refrence, Scotty's abillity to reroute power from something or other to the save the ship. That is why I suggested different bonus(es? i?) from having a training value. This also allows for simulation of "technoshock" when you move the crew from from their ship to a newer model. It takes time for them to relearn how to operate the ship.

Experince points show how well the crew works as a team. How well they can cover for each other jobs, their understanding of tatics, and overall morale.