FreeOrion

Forums for the FreeOrion project
It is currently Sat May 25, 2013 5:52 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Special elements
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:42 am 
Offline
Vacuum Dragon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 12:37 am
Posts: 2159
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Geoff the Medio wrote:
We could eliminate the shield meter, but then there would be no shields on ships. Or we could hide the actual shield level, and just assign shield ratings to ships that would still have an actual shield rating underneath... I don't see this as an improvement.

Similarly, I was thinking it might be a good idea to add some speed meters: probably one for map speed and one for battle speed. This would make it easier to consistently display speed of ships on their info panels in the fleets window. This wouldn't make the game any more complicated than it already is, since we already have speed statistics for ships. They just aren't yet called meters or displayed the same way.

Stealth and detection / vision ratings aren't normally presented a "meter" like value, but when present they are still important numbers that do exist in the game. The fact that we've put them in a selected list of statistics that get called "meter" doesn't really add any complexity that wouldn't be there if they weren't called "meter".

Note that I am only referring to Meters to do with empire management mainly, as that is always where things get away from the player in these kinds of games.

Geoff the Medio wrote:
It may seem that way, but is it really that complicated compared to similar games, and what are the alternatives?

Ok, you are right there. There are many games that get too complicated or are boring. FreeOrion, so far, as done everything right. I was just being extra cautious, as with suggestions such as multiple species per planet or multiple resources, I can see everything being messed up. We don't want to ruin the good thing we have. I also think that calling everything a meter makes it sound like a User Interface item that the player will see. Maybe the problem is just terminology. =)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Special elements
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:38 pm 
Offline
Programming, Design, and De Facto Lead
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:33 am
Posts: 7898
Location: Vancouver, BC
utilae wrote:
I was just being extra cautious, as with suggestions such as multiple species per planet or multiple resources, I can see everything being messed up.

Again, nobody is suggesting multiple species per planet.

Resources are no more complicated than requiring a building to be built before being able to build other buildings or certain kinds of ships. I was actually thinking yesterday that all resources should require a building to access. Most naturally present strategic resources would be represented as specials on planets or perhaps systems. Certain buildings would require those specials to be present where they are built, and when built, would grant the empire, or at least systems connected to the buildings for resource sharing purposes, access to stuff that it otherwise wouldn't be able to use.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Special elements
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:56 pm 
Offline
Vacuum Dragon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:34 pm
Posts: 938
Location: GA
I love that idea. :) Mining Xentronium sounds perfect. :)

Honestly I think the easiest way to keep track of it would be to have an empire pool that holds "special materials". It'd be easy to add a small feature to the part display that shows how much is available when asking you if you want to use any.

_________________
Computer programming is fun.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Special elements
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:38 am 
Offline
Vacuum Dragon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:34 pm
Posts: 938
Location: GA
BTW, what number of special elements do you guys think would be best?

_________________
Computer programming is fun.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Special elements
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:28 am 
Offline
Space Kraken
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:43 am
Posts: 130
Location: 'Round here somewhere I guess
No more than I'd dozen I should think, each one giving unique advantages and disadvantages. Any more is too much micromanagement, not to mention tough to keep track of. Heck, I'd be fine with just two or three.

Another point: I think it would be best to simply show these elements as planetary specials, and merely having the planet with the special would allow you to contruct things using it in your empire. Some exceptionally rare things might need to be built specifically on the planet with the special. (I'm not sure if anyone suggested this already)

_________________
Captain? What does the big shiny red button do?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Special elements
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:16 am 
Offline
Graphics
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:49 am
Posts: 452
Location: California, USA
These special elements would fall under the greater umbrella of planetary specials amirite? I think the limit is when your elements start behaving and looking like other elements. For planetary specials the limit could be as high as 30 unique objects, maybe 7 of them would be special mineral resources. I think the numbers depend on how imaginative you're willing to be. I'm not aware of any hard-coded limits.

Of course, if you have 100 unique planetary specials, you may never see most of them...

marhawkman wrote:
BTW, what number of special elements do you guys think would be best?


One. Call it 'xentronium'. That should leave enough room for the other 29 planetary specials.

_________________
Photo-dump.

Musings


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Special elements
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:16 am 
Offline
Space Kraken
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:43 am
Posts: 130
Location: 'Round here somewhere I guess
One's a bit thin... Three would be good I think. Each one would do something completely different to the others. Perhaps one would apply to armor, engines and hulls (dunno, xentronium?) another to weapons, missiles and fighters, and another for rare buildings.

_________________
Captain? What does the big shiny red button do?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Special elements
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:29 pm 
Offline
Vacuum Dragon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:34 pm
Posts: 938
Location: GA
Josh wrote:
These special elements would fall under the greater umbrella of planetary specials amirite? I think the limit is when your elements start behaving and looking like other elements. For planetary specials the limit could be as high as 30 unique objects, maybe 7 of them would be special mineral resources. I think the numbers depend on how imaginative you're willing to be. I'm not aware of any hard-coded limits.
Yes, and no. Naturally occuring deposits would be planetary specials, or perhaps associated with a different sort of stellar object. But I think that to balance them it'd be best to make them synthesizable. Afterall, you could synthesize Xentronium in the MoO games. :p ideally this would be accomplished by building something that simulates the effect of the special.

I keep going back to the way BotF handled Dilithium as an example. But it's a GOOD example of the basic idea, well, in some ways. Dilithium can be synthesized, but it's not cheap. The primary source is naturally occuring dilithium deposits, IE specials that spawn on stars. (Everyone's homeworld has one.) Oddly it was the only stellar special in the game, then again BotF each special had certain places where you'd find it and nowhere else. As an example, jungle planets often had food bonuses, but never energy production. Terran planets (class-m)sometimes had food, but were the primary source of a "hidden" special that greatly increased the system's population growth. Volcanic, "class-Y", often had energy bonuses, but never food, and rarely had a decent pop growth rate. but that's kinda wandering off the topic. The reason I'm mentioning it is, that was pretty much the sum total of system specials.
Dilithium was associated with the star, even though the TV show showed it occuring elsewhere.

Anyways, WHERE the special is located isn't much of an issue. The topic at hand is how many types.

Obviously Xentronium is a must have. It fits nicely with anything involving armor.

What other areas of the game are there that could be enhanced by dicovering a rare element?

Weapons, we might even be able to split this into multiple items. One of the previously mentioned ideas "Zeon gas" would have energy transfer enhancing properties. Using it in ships would increase beam weapon output, energy conservation, and somewhat improve engine performance. This of course leaves room for another element that has different properties that can be used to augment weapons in some way. erm, actually Xentronium falls into that category too as it'd make sense to have the option of armoring missiles with Xentronium casings. But neither idea would increase the DAMAGE of missiles....

*looks at previous pages...* I made a list!
Quote:
Q-Zeon(zeon was a smidge too already used): Primary use: augments weapons power/accuracy; Secondary uses: increase efficiency of engines, allows you to use it to add "kills crew" to your beam(?) weapons(maybe seperate research projects for various weapon types?)

Surillium: primary uses: Increase industrial efficiency; Secondary uses: improve shielding, improve ship power conservation

Those would be basic items that anyone can use effectively. Next are special elements that are primarily beneficial to specific race types. Four to be precise.

Biomethium: Primary use: augments biotech; secondary use: allows non-biotech structures/devices to mimic the properties of biotech(at the unaugmented level).

Trinatrium: Primary use: augment crystalline tech; secondary use: allows non-crystal tech structures/devices to mimic the properties of crystal tech(at the unaugmented level).

Syntritium: Primary use: augment solid energy tech; Secondary use: (see above)

Voldium-X: Primary use: Augment Transphasic tech; secondary use: ditto...
Obviously the four related to racial tech are less useful, but it'd be interesting to have a racial advantage that gives you a supply of a certain material on your homeworld.

Another idea I came up with is a material that improves construction times.

Making it easy to manage them is (to me) easy. Normal "day-to-day" production doesn't care about whether they exist or not. Therefore adding them to the main interface would be counterproductive. I'd have a small pop-up window hold a list of the materials you have access to/stockpiles of and the extraction rates of each. IMO it'd be the ideal middle ground between presenting the information and not overloading with the info.

_________________
Computer programming is fun.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Special elements
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:51 pm 
Offline
Graphics
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:49 am
Posts: 452
Location: California, USA
Okaaaaay, but I don't know nuthin' bout' no "racial-techs". That's an entirely different story....

Back to topic:
Things like Zeon and Xentronium will work fine as planetary specials, with no additional work required once they are under friendly jurisdiction. Simply controlling the planet this resource is on should be enough, and wars could be fought over it if it's very rare.
If you're more comfortable with them being artificially manufactured, then perhaps they'd best be limited to technologies or buildings instead. Gal Civ's Trade Goods are an example of the latter.

_________________
Photo-dump.

Musings


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Special elements
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:24 pm 
Offline
Vacuum Dragon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:34 pm
Posts: 938
Location: GA
The racial tech thing is an outgrowth of something in a different topic.

My thoughts of the material synthesis idea is that it would make a nice way to balance out getting unlucky and not finding a source of the material, or if you don't have enough of it you could build a synthesizer to increase your supply. I agree that building a "mining" facility to be able to process natural deposits is a bad idea. Having to build those things in BotF made for some really annoying micro. Natural deposits would be much cheaper to utilize than artificial synthesizers.

_________________
Computer programming is fun.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Special elements
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:04 pm 
Offline
Designer and Programmer
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:33 pm
Posts: 1772
Location: Orion
It occurs to me that some of the ideas that have been discussed in this thread might be relevant to this topic.

First of all, the idea of strategic resources unlocking techs that must be researched before the resource can be used effectively. As a rough example, let's say that getting your hands on some Xentronium unlocks the theory "Xentronium Construction". This theory would unlock apps such as Xentronium Armour and Xentronium Missile Plating, and also unlock a new theory tech, "Advanced Xentronium Construction". Having researched this, the player can now research Xentronium Infrastructure, which allows buildings and shipyards to be made out of Xentronium. (This is provided that buildings will have some sort of rating that determines how easy they are to destroy, either by espionage, orbital bombardment, or special ground combat ops.) Also, a new theory tech is unlocked: "Xentronium Synthesis", which unlocks the apps Xentronium Synthesizer (unlocks building "Xentronium Synthesizer", which can synthesize Xentronium) and Xentronium Troop Plating (automatically upgrades all ground troops with Xentronium Armour, thereby increasing their effectiveness significantly). Bear in mind that none of these techs need be researched in order for the player to mine and trade Xentronium with other players.

Secondly, the idea of special ship components. For now, I'm working under the assumption that each ship component will have some sort of rating that determines it's cost in PP and the max PP that can be allotted to it per turn. The corresponding values for the entire ship would be the sum of the component values. It has, however, been suggested that not just PP should be required in every case. Colony ships, for example, might require population and have a certain amount of population that can be allotted to their construction per turn. In the case of Xentronium components, it would be Xentronium that is required in addition to PP. If, for example, a LR ship were to be designed with one of it's external slots containing Xentronium Plated Missiles, the part "Xentronium Plated Missiles" would have a specific amount of Xentronium required, along with (probably extra) PP, and therefore when the ship is being built, it will require that amount of Xentronium to be allotted, along with PP, for the ship to be built. Similarly, If a short range ship is built with a Xentronium hull, the hull, and therefore the ship, will require a lot of Xentronium and much more PP.

General_Zaber wrote:
One's a bit thin... Three would be good I think. Each one would do something completely different to the others. Perhaps one would apply to armor, engines and hulls (dunno, xentronium?) another to weapons, missiles and fighters, and another for rare buildings.
The different elements shouldn't apply to different "things" in that sense. Each strategic resource should have one main special ability which applies to missiles, fighters buildings, etc. So we could have one for armour (Xentronium), one for ship speed and weapon stength (Zeon), and perhaps one for stealth. The player wouldn't be able to build a hull out of both Xentronium and Stealthium, so there's a strategic tradeoff, even when the player has all the special elements and their apps (which should almost NEVER happen in a game, since they should be rare, and the high level techs should take very high amounts of RP).

_________________
Warning: Antarans in dimensional portal are closer than they appear.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Special elements
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:59 pm 
Offline
Vacuum Dragon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:34 pm
Posts: 938
Location: GA
That's amore eloquent way of explaining what I was trying to say earlier. :) *high fives*

_________________
Computer programming is fun.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Special elements
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:33 pm 
Offline
Vacuum Dragon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:34 pm
Posts: 938
Location: GA
Ghost Necro bump!

_________________
Computer programming is fun.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group