FreeOrion

Utilae we seem to have an impassable diagreement here

I think ground combat is best conducted as an "island in Space" wiath a small areas of the system wide space being devoted to planets and moons, your ships can unload troops onto the planet and these groudn forces fight and take their turns along with your space fleets in a single battle screen. The entire system wide combat can and should be conducted on a single battle map.

You propose that their be a seperate battle screen for ground combat and that the player be forced to switch between them every single turn. this will get very disorienting and add unnessary time and complexity to the game along with additional rules ect ect.

I think we should try to come to a consensus on this issue. What do the rest of yall think? Should we make a poll?

_________________
Fear is the Mind Killer - Frank Herbert -Dune

I like how you thought space combat could be one big map with the entire solar system in and planets, etc.

But ground combat is where we are different on opinions, it's healthy though.

I imagine that space combat and ground combat could take more than 1 turn or 1 turn. If you have long combats, then space/ground combat would run over multiple turns. In a sense, you'll have action for a range of turns. How many space and ground combats per turn would depend on how long space/ground combat as a whole, is aloud to go per turn. If it was 2mins of combat per turn, then 10 mins worth of combat (4mins ground combat and 6mins space combat) would mean that combat as a whole would last for 5turns. If it was 5mins of combat per turn, then combat as a whole could last for 2 turns. That's where it depends. Plus I don't imagine that switching between space and ground combat would occur much at all in a turn. Depending on how everything is balanced (eg. how long it took ships to move to planet, fire troop pods, etc), it is likely that a change between space combat and ground combat would occur only once (if 2mins combat per turn).

I do, however, like your idea too, but competition is good.

I think there needs to be a consensus re the time difference between space combat, and ground combat, and what a "turn" represents.

For ease of computation lets assume a "turn" is one game year.
Lets assume that space combat can take up to 2 months game time.
Lets assume that ground combat can take up to 5 years game time.

1. All space combat is completed before ground combat begins or resumes.
2. The results of space combat can effect the on-going ground combat.
3. Up to one game year of ground combat takes place after space combat is finished.
4. If ground combat is not resolved then it continues the next turn.


Thumper

well, i still state that the best way to do it is just to add in the factor 'time' and do it real time.(with modifier on HOW fast that real time is right now.)

turn based is good and all, BUT it can become tedious when you have multiplayer to think of.

//discord

@ Discord: about the ToS combat system, you get a move or shoot action for each ship or weapon only once a few turns based on the reload time/speed? That's resembles phased somewhat, right? An original idea... I'll dlad the game to see how it plays. Do you think it would work well for 20 ship on each side? This system might have the advantages or RT without its downsides... I'll comment on it when I try it out.

Thanks for the response Utilae, I am glad you liked the system wide battle proposal and I dont expect everyone to like everything I sugjest so your right that this debate is a good thing.

It would be the accepted rationale that ground combat is much much longer then space combat, but ofcorse we dont realy know for shure. Perhaps the Fusion powere mech like war machines of the surface can cross vast expansses of a planets surface and engage in desisve combat in time scales close to that of space ships. I think a lot of differentiation can be achived by unit stats. Ground units move 1 space or perhaps less each turn ware as ships move several times that. Also the attack and defense rattings of ground forces would be such that several successive attacks would be needed to kill anything. Basicaly what I am saying is that ship and ground units can be ranked on the same scales of movment and power but we create a large gap between them so that the nature of the fights move at the right pace.

I am also a bit confused on your turn time limiting formulas. As far as I am able to determine you think that the player should have a limited amount of time to issue comands to their ships/units. Once that time has expired all the orders get calculated simultanously. (Possibly with the resultant actions being conducted like that of Combat Mission, this is a nice idea but would take more time to program).

But you also seem to indicate that the number of such combat turns that would be played in this mannor is limited by the total time of all the turns. At the end of this set time limit the players retrun to normal glactic managment. And after that galactic managment period is over the combat would be reloaded and played for another equal period of real time.

But we have a problem here, if the period of real time in each turn is flexible then the total turns played in each combat would be variable unless the total real time of the combat was desided by a multiplier on the turn time.

This is what I would propose. At game set up the players can select some options for how quickly they want space combat to play out. They can select "tight" "moderate", "loose" "none" time restrictions. At the begining of each issue orders phase the computer counts the number of units involved on each side and sets a time limit based on the number of the greatest individual players fleet. A small task force might get only 30 seconds, a large fleet several minutes. All players see what the selected time limit is and they give orders as that time ticks away. Once the timer finshes then the game claculates all the outcomes simultaniously and displays the results to the player in what ever mannor we deside.

As stuff gets destroyed the latter turns of the combat may be shorter then the earlier onces, mopping up is easier after all. Or if forces can enter the combat as I proposed in the partial ETA idea the turns can grow in length. In any event each turn is custom sized the the clash of ships involved.

I now think I know the real sticking point between us, and it has prevented my from fully being able to visualize and understant many of your proposals.

The total number of turns played in each combat should be INDEPENDENT of the length of real time that is alocated to each combat turn. All of my ideas have thus far been based on this assumption, I belive your operating on an assumption that the REAL TIME in a combat is constant and number of turns is DEPENDENT on that. (please clarifie if this is incorrect)

I strongly favor the independent point of view as it will enshure a continuity of game universe time and make shure combat is finished in an apropriate and resonable number of turns no matter the size of the fleet. When 2 large fleets fight they should logicaly be able to fight for as many turns as smaller groups of ships. Also the outcome of such combats can not be keept in limbo for the potentialy infinite durrations of time that dependent turn counts would entail. Independent numbers of turns will ofcorse nessesitate that combat turns grow in length as the game progresses, this is unavoidable and apropriate in my view, it is the nature of all things in a 4X game to grow as the game progresses.

_________________
Fear is the Mind Killer - Frank Herbert -Dune

That would be alright, no harm there.


When the player issues orders, there should be an optional time limit, set in options, you could have no time limit. When all players press a button 'done', then all orders for all players ships are played out in real time, at the same time. If the time runs out, an alarm should go off, or just click 'done' for them (the later is less friendly).


Let's say that combat=all space combats + all ground combats, within a turn. I imagined that combat could last Xmins per turn, that is a set amount of time per turn, maybe 5mins each turn, maybe 2mins each turn, something to be decided.

Also, it would be empire management, play combats at the end of the turn. Within space combat, there are so many turns, depending on how long real time is meant to last. Each turn, all players issue orders. Then when done, all orders are executed in real time. This real time is tracked, so that when Xmins (undecided) pass, players issue orders again, in the next turn, and so on. The real time could last for 30secs after each combat turn (when players issue orders). The total real time space combat time and total ground combat time would be totaled and tracked. If it reaches 5mins (or whatever), then combat continues into the next empire turn.


The period of real time (when orders are played out) would be a set amount each combat turn, ie 30sec.
It would be like this:
[empire turn 43]
===========
[combat turn 1]
Give orders: maybe time limit.
Play out orders (real time):30sec
[end combat turn 1]

[combat turn 2]
Give orders: maybe time limit.
Play out orders (real time):30sec
[end combat turn 2]

[combat turn 3]
Give orders: maybe time limit.
Play out orders (real time):30sec
[end combat turn 3]

[combat turn 4]
Give orders: maybe time limit.
Play out orders (real time):30sec
[end combat turn 4]
<total real time=2mins, continue into next turn>
Ground combat time would also be put into this total real time to determine when to continue either space combat or ground combat over into the next turn. (Both would continue, but the most recent would be played before returning to the other, eg. ground combat would be continued and played before getting back into playing space combat)


I imagine such an idea for combat turns, ie time to give orders, is a good idea, as you propose it, but after each outcome is calculated and diplayed, via real time (ie ships moving and attacking), if ships are still there after 30sec of real time, then players would give orders again. If all real time met the set amount of real time alound per empire turn, then combat would continue over into the next turn.


It would be cool to have ships come in mid battle. I imagine that during a players turn, a message saying 'reinforcements have arrived' would appear and the player could issue orders for these new ships as well as his old ones. During rela time, other players would see these ships come in from the side of the screen and play out their orders.

The time to give orders in later turns would get less, this could be dependant on X amount of ships. The real time part would stay the same, ie 30secs of your orders played out.


The real time (play out orders) is constant, a set amout, say 30sec. It is idependent of how long the player takes to issue orders. The calculations to decide whether space combat or ground comat should halt and continue on into the next turn, only takes into account real time, ie combat turns (issue orders) X 30secs. Ground combat is unkown, if ground combat uses a similar system, it would take into account the rela time, but if it was turn based, it may take into account all ground combat time. In the end, space combat real time and ground combat real time, as a total, would determine if space combat or ground combat is continued.


This may be true, how turns may always take longer, but in my system, if you have many massive armies of ships, then space combat would be spread over more turns, with the same amount of real time in each turn.

Assumming that total real time space combat per turn is 5mins and there is no ground combat during these turns:

5 ships vs 5 ships may last 2 empire turns, in the first turn it would be 5mins real time and in the second it may be 2mins real time (finishes before the next turn).

20 ships vs 20 ships may last 7 empire turns, in the first turn to the sixth turn, it would be 5mins real time and in the seventh it may be 3mins real time (finishes before the next turn).

So in my system, at most there would be 5mins real time combat per turn and on the last turn, it would be less than 5mins real time. This happens because combat time is spread out over more turns.

utilae: to quote your own tagline, [Remove all limits and anything is possible], why create a artificialy limiting turnbased system? honestly, i cant really see how large scale battles can be done turn based...the only way i can see it being done would be if you have extensive use of task forces to get the number of ships down....but honestly, why?

what you 'need' for a decent rt battle engine is formation editor, and scripting for how the different parts of the fleet should act during different circumstances.(and add in other scripting possibilities, like total formation change, split fleet into these parts, part a covers the retreat of b, etc.)
this would give you better control over your fleet, have a bunch of predetermined 'moves' that can be assigned to a fleet....so the newbs can get into the feel without to much hassle.

note though that in this idea a task force/fleet is not just that, it can consist of several parts, carrier wings, escort wings, cruiser wings, mixed wings, transport wings, etc. each having several different pre determined 'plans/scripts' for how they should behave....well you get the idea, then having the possibility to link them together into large fleets of several 'wings' and have macro control for a fleet, option A sets moderate attack for carrier wing, two escort wings to the transport wing, one escort for the carrier wing, the cruiser wing attacks agressively, and got two escort wings with it, getting some cover from the fighters launched from the carrier wing.....while option B can do something totaly different using the same wings.

something like that, everything happens rt, and you control mainly with the use of the macro fleet control, several fleets can be active, they can also be scripted to split(like in A, the fleet effectively splits into three groups, carrier, transport, cruiser, although in effect it's only two, but it leaves for a transport retreat if things get to hot...), and just about anything else you could think of.

just my little loonie idea.

//discord

I like this... but then I've already posted a simular system. Allowing for the scripts to build in SP games and used in MP games.


Thumper

I knew that would bite me in the back.


In my space combat proposal I conveyed ideas, in visual form, on how my idea would get around micromanagement and also support those who still want to micromanage.

Essentially, you would give orders to entire groups, and then refien any orders. So you would select 50 ships and tell them to move to a point on the map. You will see their movement paths. You may want 5 ships to take slightly different, but similar paths. So (for each of the 5 ships) you would select the movement path and drag it to a different position for the ship to go to. When defining movement paths, it would be simlar to waypoints, so you could make ships turn, etc.

I think it could work well.

I see I was correct in my assesment. You feel that the number of turns played in a combat before it continues to the next turn should be desided by the total Real time that has elaplsed from the start of combat.

Everything else we seem to be in agreement on which isa actualy a lot of progress so far. I agree that the amount of time for the playing out of orders should be constant as it represents a period of game universe time.

I must explain why I find rolling combat over to another Galactic year based on the real time the players take to play that battle to be REDICULUS! Unless you favor an flat unalterable time limit on the issue orders phase (for example 1 minute) regardless of the number of ships/task forces involved then the total number of turns that can be played in 5 minutes will varry by a HUGE amount. And we MUST give the players a Done button of some sort that can exicute the next turn if they have both finsihed giving orders before time runs out.

A turn is going to be a variable amount of Real time due to variations in the Issue orders phase even if the exicution phase is set in stone. So if you cap combat based on time rather then turns a large engagment will run for a FEWER number of turns then a small engagment before it gets rolled over to the next turn. It would be as if everyone was taking a nap half way through the battle to end all battles and you had to break up this critical battle over many turns.

The cap should be based on the number of turns, say 100 turns maximum at the end of which the combat gets rolled over to the next Galactic turn (because under my proposal 100 combat turns = 1 game turn).

Capping combat based on Turns rather then time is also nessary if your going to have the fractional ETA proposal inwhich Reinforcments can arive in the middle of the combat. If their were no concrete relationship between galactic and combat turns theirs no way to determine an aproprite turn of entry for Reinforcments, either the reinforcments would be in limbo or enter the combat inapropriatly soon.

Limiting combat by number of turns will is realy the only way to go.

_________________
Fear is the Mind Killer - Frank Herbert -Dune

The number of combat turns played in combat would be based on two things:
-length of real time part of a combat turn
-total real time in combat each turn
-therefore, number of turns=total real time/real time turn length
-eg. 5mins / 30sec = 10 turns in combat
so 10 turns could be played before combat continues over to the next turn.


Yes.


There would be two parts to a combat turn: give orders, play out orders.
So the 'give orders' part could be 1mins or any thing. The 'play out orders' part would be the same, ie 30sec, so 6 turns X 30sec would = 3mins total play time, then continue over to the next turn would occur.

I imagine players would have a done button, since they are all giving orders at once, when everyone has pressed done, then real time occurs, and everything is played out, for 30sec, then turn 2 of combat, etc.

The total number of turns that would be played in 5mins, would be based on the real time part of a combat turn and not the give orders part.


An example of turn times:
----------------------------
In a combat turn:
-issue orders=1 min to give orders
-real time=30sec of played out orders, each combat turn
{when real time X no turns > 2mins}
eg. 30sec X 4 turns = 2mins, continue over to next turn.
----
of course you could add on the issue orders phase:
1min30sec X 4 turns = 6mins
but continuing over into the next turn is decided by the real time part only.

Basically I am capping combat by turns
eg. total real time=2mins, max combat turns per empire turn=4
so 4 turns would be = to 2mins of real time combat


Ok. In my proposal 4 turns = 4 lots of (30sec real time combat).
or 4turns = 4 lots of (1min give orders + 30sec real time combat)
but "4 turns = 4 lots of (30sec real time combat)" would determine whether combat is rolled over into the next empire turn.
eg. 4 turns gone by, then continue into next empire turn
or eg. 2mins gone by, then continue into next empire turn.
either way would be fine.


You could convert turns to time units, but my system would work with turns as well. Either method could work 'behind the scenes'.
To the player it could be presented in turns.

well, what i proposed is remove the term 'turn' altogether, since you dont really need it, and i for one liked the seamless system of imperium galactica....worked pretty well imho....then the problems with ship design, and ultimate tech and shit....ahwell, no game is perfect*grin*.

//discord

Oh now I get it!!!

You ment role combat to the next galactic turn after a combined total amount (~5 minutes) of combat RESOLUTION PHASES which we both agree would be a set amount of time (~30 seconds). This would always yeild a fixed number of total turns.

My confusion was over your use of the words REAL TIME, which I though to me actualy real god honest time as we humans percive it. You actualy ment "GAME UNIVERSE TIME". Infact we are in total agreement combat should last for a set period of game universe time.

The issue orders phase would be the only variable period of time and would be based on factors desided at game set up. Options ranging form totaly unrestricted to extreamly brief (like 30 seconds).

Lets now address Discords arguments which we have yet to ponder (sorry Discord we were kinda distracted ). I need to play TOS more and was wondering if you can provide a download for this Imperium Galactica or atleast describe it in detail. I think their is a potential to fuse these ideas.

_________________
Fear is the Mind Killer - Frank Herbert -Dune

Yes, that's it. Heh.