Queue buildings from the Objects menu

[MatGB]

I've been thinking about proposing something like this for the last few weeks as the objects menu in the last few months has improved so much it's gone from an occasional look at item to a core bit of UI, and Vincele's proposed Add a planet menu entry to create a colony by vincele · Pull Request #167 · freeorion/freeorion.

My idea is slightly different, but as this PR proves it can be done, well, might as well add it.

There are a small number of buildings that, unless we make significant UI changes to how they work, are always going to be built in many places. Terraforming and Gaia Transformation are the obvious two, and for me I'm finding building Megaliths on all my Large and Huge planets pays off massively (I hate concentration camps).

I regularly setup columns to sort in Objects and go down each in line queuing either megalith and gaia or megalith and terraform for each. Given that, apparently, we can queue buildings from the menu, can we add these three to the list? There might be other buildings that other strategies want in many many places as well but none that immediately spring to mind.

(these are queued in the mid to late game for fairly obvious research based reasons, hence tending to queue multiples at once)

[Sloth]

There are a small number of buildings that, unless we make significant UI changes to how they work, are always going to be built in many places. Terraforming and Gaia Transformation are the obvious two, and for me I'm finding building Megaliths on all my Large and Huge planets pays off massively (I hate concentration camps).

I have expressed this multiple times before, but when there are buildings that have to be build on too many planets (let's say more than 30%) especially in the late game, then these buidlings have to change or be removed. And that has been the philosophy of freeorion and the issue with Terraforming and Gaia were discussed a lot, without reaching a soltion.
In addition i always thought the Megalith was supposed to be a once per empire building. If it's currently not, then let's change it that way.

[MatGB]

I don't get even close to 30% of my planets when I'm doing it tho, normally no more than 10. I agree with the principle, and would love to work out some way of doing it remotely, but, well, this sort of is it, isn't it?

Re the MEgalith, the main problem is the massive production bonuses you can accrue compared to the time it takes to get up to them, I've been thinking for ages we need to reduce the bonuses but have a Force Energy Structure 2 tech of some sort that improve the speed again. But in the meantime, I like my roving capital system, it gives all the main species a chance of being in charge for a bit.

[vincele]

I posted that PR in order to start a discussion if such things are interesting others. I know the tendency to try to avoid micromanagement, but colony looks like an exception to the rule...

Any thoughts ?

[Dilvish]

In addition i always thought the Megalith was supposed to be a once per empire building. If it's currently not, then let's change it that way.

Right, I always had that impression also, but looking at the script and its history I'm not finding a lot of basis for that belief-- I suppose it probably came from its role as a sort of upgraded imperial palace, which itself did have a number of restrictions to ensure you couldn't build one if you already had one.

Re the MEgalith, the main problem is the massive production bonuses you can accrue compared to the time it takes to get up to them, I've been thinking for ages we need to reduce the bonuses but have a Force Energy Structure 2 tech of some sort that improve the speed again. But in the meantime, I like my roving capital system, it gives all the main species a chance of being in charge for a bit.

Ya, I can understand you'd like it, the bonuses are pretty substantial. Regardless of whatever we do about a potential Force Energy Structure 2 tech (I think that would need some careful discussion), it looks to me like the Megalith is rather overpowered currently and should change right away. Looking at it more closely now, even simply making it a one-only-per-empire thing would not by itself really reign it in-- it seems to me that it would still be worthwhile to keep doing what you're doing, it's just that you might have to tear down the old one before building a new one. But that could still provide huge benefits.

What would perhaps fix it was if it had extra-robust one-per-empire restrictions, including the inability to destroy it (effected via a special akin to that which keeps a BLD_CONC_CAMP_REMNANT present on-planet until the specials release it). This is what I vote for -- does anyone object?

Otherwise, it looks to me like it would need a significant nerfing.

[MatGB]

I would rather not nerf it unless something is done to concentration camps at the same time myself, they're also over the top compared to force/energy, and the AI can use them rather well (whereas I really could do without the micromanagement headache.

Currently, if I capture a large world and I've got enough bonuses, I queue a megalith whereas the AI uses camps, the latter is more effective but riskier and requires paying more attention. I dislike both but would like to address it in the round alongside decreasing bonuses and increasing speed boosts to meter changes.

[Dilvish]

I would rather not nerf it unless something is done to concentration camps at the same time myself, they're also over the top compared to force/energy, and the AI can use them rather well (whereas I really could do without the micromanagement headache. Currently, if I capture a large world and I've got enough bonuses, I queue a megalith whereas the AI uses camps, the latter is more effective but riskier and requires paying more attention.

These things can both be reviewed, but I don't think it helps to tie them to each other, or to refuse to change one if we don't also change the other. But we can certainly look at Camps again, sure. Camps did already go through one significant nerfage, where we tried to leave them in a point where their cons pretty much balance out their pros-- it's not at all like they are just pure benefit the way the Megalith is. After the rebalancing I pretty much never use them myself, not because (to my awareness) of the micromanagement hassle, but because I just don't find the benefit to be worth the risk of the planet population being totally wiped out or even just decimated (which can still thrash output for quite a while).

Other than the Xenophobes who start with Camps, the AI won't use camps until very very late in the game because I don't even have them research it until the last handful of techs, because I don't think it works out very well for them-- the big burst of output is always followed by a big drop as the population falls out. These days the handling is there mostly just to support the flavor for Xenophobes.

If you want to further nerf Camps some (and presumably reduce their downside risk a little also), that's fine with me, or if you want we can just have the AI stop using them altogether.

But regardless of whether or not Camps get nerfed more, it looks pretty clear to me that the Megalith needs either nerfing or restrictions so it can't be built everywhere.

[Sloth]

If you want to further nerf Camps some (and presumably reduce their downside risk a little also), that's fine with me, or if you want we can just have the AI stop using them altogether.[/b]

Just keep in mind that introducing allegiance of species to empires (and i hope taht's a goal for 0.4.6) will further nerf Camps in a big way.

[Vezzra]

What would perhaps fix it was if it had extra-robust one-per-empire restrictions, including the inability to destroy it (effected via a special akin to that which keeps a BLD_CONC_CAMP_REMNANT present on-planet until the specials release it). This is what I vote for -- does anyone object?

I think you lost me here - how is making the megalith un-scrapable supposed to help with the problem that it's overpowered? Making sure you can only have one of those makes sense very much, but also disallowing me to destroy it would prevent from being able to move my capital...?

[vincele]

New PR here

Fix for PE_UNINHABITABLE planets...

[Dilvish]

What would perhaps fix it was if it had extra-robust one-per-empire restrictions, including the inability to destroy it (effected via a special akin to that which keeps a BLD_CONC_CAMP_REMNANT present on-planet until the specials release it). This is what I vote for -- does anyone object?

I think you lost me here - how is making the megalith un-scrapable supposed to help with the problem that it's overpowered?

Without the restriction on scrapping, the restriction against more than one doesn't matter much-- you get the bulk of their benefit instantly, and then you could just tear it down and build another someplace else (just more micromanagement headache, which is not how we like to solve problems). But if it were one-only and unscrappable, the effects of concern would be limited to one planet, making them not so overpowered. But see below for other ideas.

Making sure you can only have one of those makes sense very much, but also disallowing me to destroy it would prevent from being able to move my capital...?

Yes, well, it's transcendental architecture, isn't it-- capital isn't meant to be moved after such a thing.

Ok, here's another idea, with two parts-- (i) we forget the no-scrapping part, but still add the same kind of one-only restrictions like the palace has, and (ii) to create a disincentive to the micromanagement of tearing it down and rebuilding elsewhere, in addition to its current buffs we let it also add a +1 progression towards target Industry and Research at all owned planets, not just the current one (and then maybe double its construction costs)

[MatGB]

I'd be happier with that.

For what it's worth my rough plan was to propose after we've got the release done that some of the Construction techs be changed a bit and that Galactic Infrastructure (which is basically "the end game starts here" tech wise) be changed so that planets below meter go up towards meter in roughly the same way population does, so that the higher your total the faster you climb.

I was going to tweak Gravitic Architecture a bit and that way the massive bonuses you get to supply in the end game are nerfed (so that fuel and zero point generators are still useful) and we get 'force energy 2' relatively painlessly.

I do agree that the Megalith as is being built everywhere is silly, it needs to be more expensive and much much cooler for the rest of the galaxy (but I'd reduce the supply boost to 1), but a once only deal. To be honest, I'd dump the auto max thing completely and instead have bigger bonuses to speed of change.

[Sloth]

in addition to its current buffs we let it also add a +1 progression towards target Industry and Research at all owned planets, not just the current one (and then maybe double its construction costs)

and instead have bigger bonuses to speed of change.

Just keep in mind that raising the speed of meter change has two possibly bad effects on gameplay (especially in the late game):
1. Switching foci around should very seldomly be optimal, because of the danger of being forced into micromanagement. A faster meter growth makes focus switching better.
2. Empire expansion is already too fast and unbalanced because of the snowball effect. A faster meter growth makes new colonies pay off even quicker.

[Dilvish]

Just keep in mind that raising the speed of meter change has two possibly bad effects on gameplay

I was certainly keeping that in mind, isn't that kind of the whole point of my making an issue about this building? If you think my suggestion isn't good enough, please suggest something you deem better.

[MatGB]

Whatever we do would need very careful testing, note it was an idea I'm playing around with that I haven't even worked through enough to properly propose, but as we're talking about it might as well mention it.

1. Switching foci around should very seldomly be optimal, because of the danger of being forced into micromanagement. A faster meter growth makes focus switching better.

I'd have both the bonus and the penalty be higher, in part to prevent that.

2. Empire expansion is already too fast and unbalanced because of the snowball effect. A faster meter growth makes new colonies pay off even quicker.

In the early to mid game, new colonies tend to be at their max production (or research) most of the time as the growth in population determines what they can do. Exceptions are if you're in systems with existing non-population based bonuses, like the GGG or micrograv. But in the late game, you've got so many bonuses that, despite the increased population growth created by Lifecycle Manipulation, they rarely keep up.

What I'd like to do is reduce the maximum possible for all, plus increase the growth rate so that newish colonies are more important whereas existing colonies tend to be at the (much lower) maximum. If the meter growth is tied, as population growth is slower if you're smaller.

I definitely want to slow down the steamroller, but I also think having all these cool potential things that give you bonuses is pointless if you're never going to get most of the bonus before the game is over in the overwhelming majority of systems. Hence reduce all the bonuses after the very early game, but make it quicker to get to them. I was also going to tie it into things like bombing runs and similar being more useful, etc but that's way outside the scope of this discussion for now.

Basically, you're right, we do need to be careful about changes of this nature, but we also need to balance some of the issues.