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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:37 am 
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Hmm, perhaps the time gate can only be built in a black hole system. However, the construction of the time machine should end the game, unless it's a tie, and some sort of battle could decide it. Actually playing the game in the past would i believe be ultimately disappointing, if not stupid.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:53 pm 
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(If we will have ending videos) the time machine tech victory would end with a video showing citizens of a certain race peacefully walking around in a 20th-century looking city and a large battleship looming over - and then the belly of the battleship would open and the stellar converter would be charged (visible cue with gathering lights around the mouth of the cannon). Citizens would panic and run around and then the stellar converter would open fire, thereby rendering the whole screen white.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:34 pm 
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Perhaps when a race is about to travel back in time, an announcement is made each turn. "X going back in time in Y turns." This allows each player to start building a gate if they have the tech and amassing/attaching a fleet to that gate. Techo-bable rational: I dunno, some galaxy wide periodic event which enables the use of a gate.

When the gates are used the next turn's state comes from an old savegame file plus the fleet and tech you managed to bring back with you (which might be nothing at all). I'm not sure how you would handle diplomatic standings. I guess two races that failed the time race (didn't build a gate) would have the diplomatic relations that they had in the early past. Two new allies that were at war in the past would probably revert to war since the vast population still hates them. Human players could overcome this, but it may be trickier for computer players.

There might also be a tech which allows you to build a gate's far end/receiver. You build it at some early point in the game and this is where/when your future fleet arrives. Other players arrive at the place and time of their first "far end"/"early end"/"receiver" gate. Which might be critical years after your gate.

This would present the situation where the future race to build the gates can be completed, fleets and tech are sent back in time but to two dates 20 years apart. This means that one of the players has to withstand the future tech of another player (and build their receiving gate, it's the past the receiver hasn't been built yet) until their future fleet arrives. Perhaps when the game is reloaded to the early game, late players have the opportunity to build the receiver at any time to "get access" to the future fleet (provided they have the tech). This would limit the hardship of building a receiver 500 years after your enemy.

Perhaps the prereq of building a sender gate is having a receiver gate built at anypoint in the past, it can even have been destroyed seconds after completion. This makes it valuable to build the receiver, but the build time is not critical since you can always prebuild it when the game is loaded from earlier. Why would you prebuild it at a time that you didn't the first time through (supposedly you don't have knowledge of the future, in the second past until your fleet arrives). You know other future fleets arrive which is proof that this hitherto theoretical technology works so you now build this new fangled receiver in hopes that a future self will come pouring out to your rescue.

Perhaps races which fail the future gate building race can still prebuild receivers in the second past and there's a chance that a smattering of ships/technology can come out. It might just be as little as a scout ship. Rational: They were still fighting in the crumbling future and the failed builders might have built an emergency sender gate with very limited capability.

This allows some races to still have a chance (albeit slim) of surviving in this new second past.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:35 pm 
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an addition to my previous post.

With the receiver and sending gates, I think 1 extra building/tech needs to be added. An emitter that changes the state of the universe. We can say that time travel is not physically possible in the universe, sending and receiving gates can still be built but they don't work. A tech/building which alters the state of the universe allows you to use the gates.

What does this do? You can say that after the emitter has been fired, it takes 10/20/50 years for the changes to cascade and coalesce for time travel to be possible. This allows multiple races to preform a jump to the past at the same moment (if they have a receiver in their past and presently have a sender). Only 1 emitter needs to be built to allow time travel for all (at a predefined point in the future).

This emitter fixes the problem of a race to the gate and the winner takes all.

The state change of the universe can move from one where only receiving time travellers is possible to only sending time travellers is possible. During the cascading period of 50 years from emitter trigger to phase change, we can say that time travel is not possible. This prevents tight time loops where a single scout can change into 1024 scouts in a year. It also bring in extra strategy. If you don't like time travel, build an emitter before anyone build a receiver.

Large time loops are still possible, you can return to the same receiver numerous times as long as you build the sending gate multiple times through multiple histories at a point after the state of the universe has been altered. Each time you go back to the receiver, all the fleet and ships from all previous hops back are there (there can even be copies of the same ship). This coalescence period (from emitter trigger to new phase) ensures that there is enough time for an opponent (or ally) to stop the loop.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:23 pm 
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You've thought out a lot of details, but you havn't thought of a way to make it fun. :?

The idea of a reciever is especially non-fun. Anyone who doesn't build one early would be stupid to initiate time travel, unless it's an act of extreme desperation. Whenever the "universe is changed" to allow time travel, (isn't there a more obvious weapons application of changing the nature of the universe!?) Everyone looses the empire they have been building for the past hour(s). They go back to an earlier state of the game where much that they have already accomplished remains to be done again.

Whoever had the reciever first, gets a huge advantage. They may not be the player that initiated time travel. Which means only a desperate player would initiate time travel if they weren't sure of having the first reciever. All the players who "in the past" hadn't yet built their gate would be stuck doing the same things the same way, until they could build a reciever— all the while fearing the dread future armada. The only reason to build a reciever would be the hopes of having the first one, since once you get reverted to the past, you know a reciever is neccesary, and probably your main chance of survival.

However, on a medium/large galaxy, even a future armada may not be enough to gurantee a swift victory. The player with the earliest reciever probably won't have a huge infrastructure yet. So even with his advanced fleet galactic conquest will still take awhile. Essentially, the game will be replayed from the middle, only this time one player has an advantage. Many players will probably just quit when the game is reverted into the past.

What happens if somebody initiates time travel a second, third, etc time? A game could last a very long time.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:46 pm 
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You could also make the argument that the game stops becoming fun after your glorious fleet gets destroyed, but I think it would be frowned upon to leave the game after that point.

The receiver prevents the auto victory of a time travelling race. Without a receiver, they send a scout to the homeworld of the enemy before they evolved and drop a moldy tuna sandwich. It might just be that a receiver is a simple tech, everyone has the potential to build one, but it's expensive. This means that the 2nd time through history you starve your homeworld so that they build it as fast as possible (perhaps you're sending food back, to help counter this).

I dunno, the time travel is just a suggestion. I think it opens up a lot of very different strategies that other games don't allow.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:25 pm 
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eleazar wrote:
Everyone looses the empire they have been building for the past hour(s). They go back to an earlier state of the game where much that they have already accomplished remains to be done again.


jmercer, I think the quoted portion above is the single most important reason why going back to a prior state of a game is unfun. Note that this reloading may occur in every single game, if any of the races in the game invents the time machine tech. Hence I prefer the auto victory of a time travelling race.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:39 pm 
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ok, fair enough.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:14 pm 
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eleazar wrote:
Actually playing the game in the past would i believe be ultimately disappointing, if not stupid.
You could have it as a downside to attempting the win condition.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:15 am 
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marhawkman wrote:
eleazar wrote:
Actually playing the game in the past would i believe be ultimately disappointing, if not stupid.
You could have it as a downside to attempting the win condition.


That's Always a bad idea


In any case as I said there are two Basic good methods of wining

1. Remove Competition from the 'board'
Domination (through any combo of Diplomacy and Conquest)
[a Galactic Senate type win should depend on the strength of the Senate and should count as a win for all who voted for the leader... essentially like a mass Permanent Alliance for all who go along... MOO2's was sort of OK in that]

2. Move Outside the 'board'
Either
In space (Technologies that let you colonize other Galaxies... ie Civ's space ship to Alpha Centauri)

In time (I'd say Building the 'Time gate' would let you do it... and the movie should look like a battleship attacking a 1st century city not a 20th century city)

Outside of space-time (Ascendance/transcendance victory)

So for "Type 2" victories you have
2a. Get high tech and build a special project [effectively this was the wipe out Antarans]
2b. Maintain some type of special effect throughout your society.

One point, the "Victory Movie" for Transcendance should probably have something like a speaker in the background
"...for millenia sentient races across the galaxy have wondered at the mysteries of existence and reality. The Orions are known to have puzzled this long and hard, but the answer is lost to us with the mystery of their disappearance. Finally, we have reached the answer, we know the nature of reality, and why the Orions left, we must now also leave, for this mystery is to great for lesser minds to comprehend... we finally know the nature of life, the universe, everything... none of it is real, it is all an illusion, a game of some advanced mind.... We, and all races and empires, all planets and stars, all cities and starfleets, all our histories and sciences are merely simulations, abstractions, our discovery of this knowledge removes our connection from this existence as surely as....."[fade out]


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:42 pm 
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Krikkitone wrote:
One point, the "Victory Movie" for Transcendance should probably have something like a speaker in the background
"...for millenia sentient races across the galaxy have wondered at the mysteries of existence and reality. The Orions are known to have puzzled this long and hard, but the answer is lost to us with the mystery of their disappearance. Finally, we have reached the answer, we know the nature of reality, and why the Orions left, we must now also leave, for this mystery is to great for lesser minds to comprehend... we finally know the nature of life, the universe, everything... none of it is real, it is all an illusion, a game of some advanced mind.... We, and all races and empires, all planets and stars, all cities and starfleets, all our histories and sciences are merely simulations, abstractions, our discovery of this knowledge removes our connection from this existence as surely as....."[fade out]


Haha, good idea. Maybe then the game should crash?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:10 pm 
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Maybe it should contact the default printer and print a bunch of static with a picture your race (a picture made off a slightly different form of static) in the centre and the words (written in a different form of static) "We're free"

On the other hand, ink is money... It wouldn't be the same if you just use the monitor.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:39 pm 
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Goodmorning all,

Somebody mentioned the possibilities of transcending races disappearing from the galaxy leaving other races to continue. and then getting a WHOPPING bonus to score to at the end.

I FULLY SUPPORT THIS IDEA IT'S GREAT!

A few quick (i swear) points as to why, and a small suggestion.

1. Having a neighboring empire vanish into a puff of smoke, (probably leaving planets/some infrastructure intact) would make for a SUPER cool late game planet rush, pot marking the planets left behind with tech bonuses, and pre-built infrastructure, and other bonuses. This late game rush would be HIGHLY destabilizing for all the races left behind. A real good late game shaker upper.

2. It allows multiple victory paths to be used in the same game, One team trans's out and in the wake another dominates what remains. both 'win', but different ways and on different teams.

3. It makes it so that Trans'ing races are not directly competing with each other. One thing about the enlightenment it usually comes hand in hand with empathy, peace mongering. The idea that two races working towards transcendence wouldn't be actively trying to thwart one another . . . is difficult to envision, for me.


Which brings me to my suggestion.

I like the idea that working towards Transcendence should reduce your races abilities to work towards other victories. IMO the various victory conditions should make other victory conditions harder to obtain IMO[almost concurring the galaxy, should make achieving a diplo victory with the last races hard because they don't trust you as far as they can throw your gigantic empire, pouring as much resources into tech as is necessary for Singularity Victory excludes mostly the money/construction for a Dom victory. yada yada. ], with some exceptions, Diplo -> dom being a valid stratagie, build an alliance crush those who remain, (different from Dom-> Diplo), and Diplo -> trans. Merge with another Transending Empire, gain 2/3 of the trans points from each empire in the new empire. {the previously different approaches to transcendence being groked resulting in wonderful new things from your new waterbuddies[see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grok and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stranger_in_a_Strange_Land ] for references}.

In short I propose while physical abilities would begin to drop off, and productive population would begin to dwindle, Diplomatic abilities should skyrocket. This would encourage diplomatic unions between transcending races. Which, because it doesn't matter if they trans out(IE their winning won't prevent Dom victories), warlike races would more or less ignore, and get on with killing other warlike races. So you get a strategic choice as a warlike race.

A, Leave your neighboring trans race to trans out then sweep in and grab the juiciest planets when they're gone.
Or
B, attack the puny weaklings while they can no longer defend themselves and benefit early from the influx of well built up planets, but know that doing so REALLY hurts your diplomatic standings with the world, (as mass genocide of peaceful monks just don't look look good on the headlines of any paper.)

anyway as always I've talked too much.

best wishes all.

Price


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:03 am 
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Robbie.Price wrote:
Goodmorning all,

Somebody mentioned the possibilities of transcending races disappearing from the galaxy leaving other races to continue. and then getting a WHOPPING bonus to score to at the end.


I must have missed that, but its a cool idea. However:

Robbie.Price wrote:
A, Leave your neighboring trans race to trans out then sweep in and grab the juiciest planets when they're gone.
Or
B, attack the puny weaklings while they can no longer defend themselves and benefit early from the influx of well built up planets, but know that doing so REALLY hurts your diplomatic standings with the world, (as mass genocide of peaceful monks just don't look look good on the headlines of any paper.)

If your a warmonger you probably wont care about B, therefore a different balance must be archived. The common sense: If you wait the worlds are empty, if you attack now you have to fight the defences, but you get first pick of the worlds balance may be enough.


Robbie.Price wrote:
In short I propose while physical abilities would begin to drop off, and productive population would begin to dwindle, Diplomatic abilities should skyrocket. This would encourage diplomatic unions between transcending races. Which, because it doesn't matter if they trans out(IE their winning won't prevent Dom victories), warlike races would more or less ignore, and get on with killing other warlike races. So you get a strategic choice as a warlike race.

I can't remember where (maybe in this thread?) but someone proposed a very similar idea: that to get a transendence victory you need to keep a very high moral and as you get closer more and more of your population meditate rather than doing real work. Basically Trancendence was a social victory rather than a tech victory (something else could be a tech victory). I don't actually think diplomatic abilities should skyrocket though.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:51 am 
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Goodmorning all again

Quote:
I can't remember where (maybe in this thread?) but someone proposed a very similar idea: that to get a transendence victory you need to keep a very high moral and as you get closer more and more of your population meditate rather than doing real work. Basically Trancendence was a social victory rather than a tech victory (something else could be a tech victory). I don't actually think diplomatic abilities should skyrocket though.


Ya, i believe the idea originated in this topic. Re the something else being a tech victory . . . i believe the tech victory condition was the concept of a 'Singularity' beyond which change is too rapid for us to intellectually keep up. (Note, anything approaching exponential tech growth in a 4x game would be silly, as techs get harder you get them sooner . .. . the final tech to win being done. . . by the definition of Singularity . . . at the same turn you start it . . . so the name is just that a Name, with nothing to do with how one gets there)

I didn't mention it, because i couldn't think of a game mechanic to make it happen, but Capturing transcending populations could easily be modeled to have some significant benefits. So warmongers have an extra reason to attack(before transcendence), but an extra reason not to, since the transcending groups have high diplomacy (which quickly becomes their only defense, if taking transcendence steps hurts production, and fighting capacity, their ships/defenses will be low, and inefficient late game, crushing a soon to transcend species would not take much in the way of resources.). The dilom bonuses also encourage transcending races to transcend in groups, all unifying then some turns later all transcending out at once(Amplifying the debalancing effect of power distribution and late game planet grabs by virtue of more planets).

anyway, I'll stop at this point

Best wishes all
Price


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