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 Post subject: Expanding the story
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:31 pm 
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Could somebody develop a cogent explanation for why the star ships are the way the are? Pd's starting to ask questions. :P

specifically, explain why and how...
ships are in herds and not single ships
ships can be small and stealthy and still have huge doomstar sized vessels
ships are speedy instead of heavily armored.

also what ships are made of, how they're constructed, what texture they might be is helpful, etc.

Plus, if you have any further details on the ships that haven't already been described, that's especially helpful (but only if you say something).

I should've asked this much earlier but it never occurred to me until now. I'll make up some kind of an explanation if you want, but don't blame me if you die laughing your ass off:

I wrote:
In the Gyisache hierarchy, one ship is not really one ship, it's really a group of ships, just like a school of fish looks like one big fish wherein reality it's really just a whole lot of fish. All ships generally follow the same blue print from the smallest fighter to the grandest battle station. Protection is of first and foremost concern, and there are myriad of methods and technologies they implement to this end: Engines that allow them to thrust quickly in any direction, stealth composites that hide them from sensors, and even the ships themselves have a baffling appearance, making it impossible for an enemy to discern which angle is best to attack from. In fact, some argue that Gyisache ships may be more comparable to bales of turtles than schools of fish.
Some are fighters, some are defenders, others carry specialized sensor suites, and others are just along for the ride. Whatever the case may be, their ships are independent of each other and rather small by themselves on top of being weak, vulnerable, underpowered, and often undermanned. It is only by virtue of the remote central control ships that the disparate Gyisache fleet combines to form anything that resembles a true ship, and without which the Gyisache would run amok.

The command ship, then, is the safest place to be, a point that's well reflected in it's architecture. It's quite easy
to tell which ship is the command ship in any given fleet: they are larger than all the ships surrounding it, they are often more elaborate features due to the diverse communication suites on board, they are always at the center of a flock and they make a point of (ab)using the ship's powerful comm frequencies to make a spectacle of themselves (protect me first!) Putting them at the center makes sense of course; The common explanation (and the one you'll get if you ask any Gyisache) is that the command ship houses important officers and contains the fleet's valuable communications codes. The real reason probably has something to do in keeping with the nice cushion of cannon fodder it puts between themselves and the things that want to hurt them, and which also facilitates better communication for doing so.*

The Command ship's size is proportional to the flock it leads not just because of the communications equipment involved, but also as a matter of principle. It is constructed much like an armadillo's shell with only the barest extensions and various antennae poking out from between the onion-like layers of armor surrounding it.
It is a nigh-impregnable fortress, where a battle hinges on how long a Gyisache command ship can last, and just how willing it's underlings are to protect it...

*As a side note, it's common practice for lesser Gyisache ship captains to be left in the dark as to the whereabouts of an impending attack, so as to make them more dependent on the information provided by the command ship. Whether this makes their commanders more or less likely to obey orders is debatable.


You now have a reason to throw in your two cents. I'll just wait and listen :)

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Last edited by Josh on Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Expanding the story
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:03 am 
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I really should leave first reply to Utilae but I just love thinking of stuff like this and I couldn't resist :D

Josh wrote:
specifically, explain why and how...
ships are in herds and not single ships

Because Gyisache have heard instinct, they feel a lot better in larger numbers so they deliberately seek out and stick close to their kin. You could increase the strength up to something like a nicotine addiction, they can't help themselves from gravitating to each other and have withdrawal symptoms if they try to fight it.

Josh wrote:
ships can be small and stealthy and still have huge doomstar sized vessels
They're only small and stealthy relative to other ships with the huge hullsize. Compared to a smaller ship from another race there quite visible.

Josh wrote:
ships are speedy instead of heavily armored.
Since prehistory Gyisache have defended themselves by being small & speedy. Pick one:
It never occurred to them to change strategy.
It did occur to them but they're subconsciously (or consciously) bias so they picked small & speedy anyway.
Gyisache panic when unable to run from danger, a slow ship counts as unable to run so no one would set foot in one.
Their ship designers are pretty smart guys, they understood these ancient instincts and knew the captains would frequently end up routing so they designed ships with two roles in mind: 1) fighting, 2) surviving the inevitable retreat. For those goals small & speedy is a better solution than heavy armour. I'm assuming that speedy ships are the best ingame solution to the problem, if I'm wrong pick on of the other options


P.S. saying that people get confused on witch side to attack from is really unerestimateing people ;) maybe on the first encounter they'd be confused but once they bring the scanner logs home the tech boys will quickly come up with detailed plans of where the best attack points are.

Also I'm not sure if command ships really fit the theme, herds don't really have formal leaders. I'd always thought the Gyisache would have some sort of subconsious way of fighting for the centre spots and would be constantly changing based on who's winning this week. Of course they'd stop and work together if they ever encountered a threat.


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 Post subject: Re: Expanding the story
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:04 am 
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@Josh. Good explanation of the ships. Here are my comments:

Josh wrote:
In the Gyisache hierarchy, one ship is not really one ship, it's really a group of ships, just like a school of fish looks like one big fish wherein reality it's really just a whole lot of fish. All ships generally follow the same blue print from the smallest fighter to the grandest battle station. Protection is of first and foremost concern, and there are myriad of methods and technologies they implement to this end: Engines that allow them to thrust quickly in any direction, stealth composites that hide them from sensors, and even the ships themselves have a baffling appearance, making it impossible for an enemy to discern which angle is best to attack from. In fact, some argue that Gyisache ships may be more comparable to bales of turtles than schools of fish.
Some are fighters, some are defenders, others carry specialized sensor suites, and others are just along for the ride. Whatever the case may be, their ships are independent of each other and rather small by themselves on top of being weak, vulnerable, underpowered, and often undermanned. It is only by virtue of the remote central control ships that the disparate Gyisache fleet combines to form anything that resembles a true ship, and without which the Gyisache would run amok.

I like this alot. However, Gyisache ships are at their smallest controlled by one Gyisache. This allows the individual to fleet the battle at will. Different sizes of ships are represented by different sizes of the herd, as you have been saying. The Gyisache may have a command ship as a role, though I don't think it is a good explanation for how they manage larger herds of ships. We could just say that communcation technologies and fleet management systems help with that. If there are command ships in the herd, they are not necesarily the biggest ship.

Josh wrote:
The command ship, then, is the safest place to be, a point that's well reflected in it's architecture. It's quite easy
to tell which ship is the command ship in any given fleet: they are larger than all the ships surrounding it, they are often more elaborate features due to the diverse communication suites on board, they are always at the center of a flock and they make a point of (ab)using the ship's powerful comm frequencies to make a spectacle of themselves (protect me first!) Putting them at the center makes sense of course; The common explanation (and the one you'll get if you ask any Gyisache) is that the command ship houses important officers and contains the fleet's valuable communications codes. The real reason probably has something to do in keeping with the nice cushion of cannon fodder it puts between themselves and the things that want to hurt them, and which also facilitates better communication for doing so.*

Anyone knows that a command ship is the worst place to be, since it is often the biggest target. I would say once again to leave command ships out. Certainly the Gyisache would not desire to make the command ship stick out, as it would be more of a target. The safest place to be is with the biggest herd. An interesting possibility is that Gyisache ships fleeing one herd may join another.

Josh wrote:
The Command ship's size is proportional to the flock it leads not just because of the communications equipment involved, but also as a matter of principle. It is constructed much like an armadillo's shell with only the barest extensions and various antennae poking out from between the onion-like layers of armor surrounding it.
It is a nigh-impregnable fortress, where a battle hinges on how long a Gyisache command ship can last, and just how willing it's underlings are to protect it...

As a side note, it's common practice for lesser Gyisache ship captains to be left in the dark as to the whereabouts of an impending attack, so as to make them more dependent on the information provided by the command ship. Whether this makes their commanders more or less likely to obey orders is debatable.

Once again, leave command ships out, as they don't really fit the Gyisache model.



Tortanick wrote:
Josh wrote:
specifically, explain why and how...
ships are in herds and not single ships

Because Gyisache have heard instinct, they feel a lot better in larger numbers so they deliberately seek out and stick close to their kin. You could increase the strength up to something like a nicotine addiction, they can't help themselves from gravitating to each other and have withdrawal symptoms if they try to fight it.

Gyisache ships are herds of single ships. The reasons for this have been explained by Tortanick. I will say that the main reason they are in herds is because they are afraid to be in danger, and feel that a full herd is the safest place to be. Also gives them the greatest chance to survive. However, each Gyisache has his own ship. If things go wrong, and the Herd is starting to look like an unsafe place, and there is no chance of survival, a Gyisache will flee to safety in his ship. What this can also mean is that Gyisache ships fleeing one herd might join another.

Tortanick wrote:
Josh wrote:
ships can be small and stealthy and still have huge doomstar sized vessels

They're only small and stealthy relative to other ships with the huge hullsize. Compared to a smaller ship from another race there quite visible.

Gyisache ships are small because the Gyisache do not like to put all their eggs in one basket. Each Gyisache or group of Gyisache is also selfish in the fact that each will prefer control over their survival, and by having their own ship for an individual, a Gyisache can flee at his own desire. A smaller ships is also easier to hide, harder to hit, etc.

Tortanick wrote:
Josh wrote:
ships are speedy instead of heavily armored.

Since prehistory Gyisache have defended themselves by being small & speedy. Pick one:
It never occurred to them to change strategy.
It did occur to them but they're subconsciously (or consciously) bias so they picked small & speedy anyway.
Gyisache panic when unable to run from danger, a slow ship counts as unable to run so no one would set foot in one.
Their ship designers are pretty smart guys, they understood these ancient instincts and knew the captains would frequently end up routing so they designed ships with two roles in mind: 1) fighting, 2) surviving the inevitable retreat. For those goals small & speedy is a better solution than heavy armour. I'm assuming that speedy ships are the best ingame solution to the problem, if I'm wrong pick on of the other options

Yes, agree. Gyisache value the ability to flee from battle over anything else.

Josh wrote:
also what ships are made of, how they're constructed, what texture they might be is helpful, etc.

The Gyisache construct their ships from metal alloys like most other races. Their ships are spherical for the most part, and compartmentalised heavily and segmented in apperance. Colour is of no preference to them. One thing is that they have the most unshiniest metals ever known. This is to avoid refelcting any light at all. The texture of their ships are scuffed, metallic, dark, blurry, murky and unshiny.

Tortanick wrote:
P.S. saying that people get confused on witch side to attack from is really unerestimateing people ;) maybe on the first encounter they'd be confused but once they bring the scanner logs home the tech boys will quickly come up with detailed plans of where the best attack points are.

Also I'm not sure if command ships really fit the theme, herds don't really have formal leaders. I'd always thought the Gyisache would have some sort of subconsious way of fighting for the centre spots and would be constantly changing based on who's winning this week. Of course they'd stop and work together if they ever encountered a threat.

Agree. Command ships do not suit them.





Gyisache fleet structure:
===================
1 Gyisache Ship = 1 Gyisache Ship
1 Gyisache Family Ship = 3 Gyisache Ships
1 Gyisache Flock Ship = 7 Gyisache Ships
1 Gyisache Herd Ship = 15 Gyisache Ships
1 Gyisache Mega Herd Ship = 30 Gyisache Ships

Gyisache Ships connect to provide greater management of a group of ships, then if they were seperate, but in formation.
As a larger Gyisache ships life decreases, it's size decreases and Gyisache Ships are spawned as fleeing Gyisache Ships (from an appearance and gameplay point of view).
There is no command structure, as instinct insures that all Gyisache think along the same lines. The first to think and decide something is the first to act. All other Gyisache will follow that act regardless of whether it was a bad or good decision. The Gyisache will follow an act like sheep. An example is if one Gazelle runs, so do the rest.


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 Post subject: Re: Gyisache
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:57 am 
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I doubt it will be possible to actually have those ships break apart, if they decide to flee/retreat. That is something highly unique, which will only be needed by this race, so it's probably not worth the effort at this stage. IMO it's better to stick with fixed sizes for now.

Quote:
The Gyisache construct their ships from metal alloys like most other races.

How can you say that? What other races?


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 Post subject: Re: Gyisache
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:04 am 
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pd wrote:
I doubt it will be possible to actually have those ships break apart, if they decide to flee/retreat. That is something highly unique, which will only be needed by this race, so it's probably not worth the effort at this stage. IMO it's better to stick with fixed sizes for now.

Yeah, I thought this might be the case.

Effectively at the least I was thinking the graphical appearance would be that of many small ships connected together.

I will say then that larger ships (which are made up of lots of small ships connected together) have engines in all directions as Josh as stated to allow for easier retreats.

pd wrote:
utilae wrote:
The Gyisache construct their ships from metal alloys like most other races.

How can you say that? What other races?

Ok, sorry lol. I know there are no other races. I won't say whats common or what other races have. I'll just say they construct their ships from metal alloys .. . etc


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 Post subject: Re: Gyisache
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:30 am 
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utilae wrote:
Effectively at the least I was thinking the graphical appearance would be that of many small ships connected together.

Yes, that's fine. I think Josh did a good job at this.

Regarding colors and materials: It might be worth a try to do two things: play with highly reflective materials or play with some kind of high contrast patterns. Both will make it hard to identify single ships, when clustered together. Zebras use their pattern for the same reason.


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 Post subject: Re: Gyisache
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:48 pm 
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I'm getting the feeling you don't want command ships :)

Anyways continue, I like where this is going. And, oh yeah, I'm back.


edit:

JUST one or two things I really want to point out:
Utilae wrote:
Each Gyisache or group of Gyisache is also selfish in the fact that each will prefer control over their survival, and by having their own ship for an individual, a Gyisache can flee at his own desire.


Okay, I disagree with the underlined point, because I draw a clear distinction between fighters which (I assume) are individually piloted, and a ship capable of carrying those fighters. The smallest ship cannot be the same as a fighter.

pd wrote:
It might be worth a try to do two things: play with highly reflective materials or play with some kind of high contrast patterns.


Mmmmm, no, I think the opposite is true. I understand why you say this, and I like the zebra idea, but I see the ships themselves as looking more greyed, dull, rough and not shiny, and Utilae has confirmed this. It's also why I believe shades of taupe are the best colors for Gyisache ships, such as these:

Grey Taupe
Pale Taupe
Sandy Taupe
Dark Taupe

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 Post subject: Re: Gyisache
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:14 pm 
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Josh wrote:
Okay, I disagree with the underlined point, because I draw a clear distinction between fighters which (I assume) are individually piloted, and a ship capable of carrying those fighters. The smallest ship cannot be the same as a fighter.


I don't see any problems, you can have different sized ships and yet both have only one person on-board. The real problem though is if there is one person per ship, who pilots the fighters? I'd guess they're remote controlled, fighter pilots just leave their big ship on a follow the heard autopilot.


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 Post subject: Re: Gyisache
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:05 am 
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My thought is that each Gyisache individual has his own little ship, which funnily enough is fighter size. This means that everyone on a larger ship has their own fighter onboard, so they can escape if the ship they are on is about to be destroyed or in great danger. I'm not sure how this would work in gameplay terms. But hopefully it makes more sense now.


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 Post subject: Re: Gyisache
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:56 pm 
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Yeah that's fine. As long as fighters, bombers and ships aren't the same thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Gyisache
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:48 pm 
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utilae wrote:
My thought is that each Gyisache individual has his own little ship, which funnily enough is fighter size. This means that everyone on a larger ship has their own fighter onboard, so they can escape if the ship they are on is about to be destroyed or in great danger. I'm not sure how this would work in gameplay terms. But hopefully it makes more sense now.


Actually I find myself more confused by this. I could see them having an escape ship but I just can't see them leaving the herd and flying a smaller, weaker ship towards the enemy.


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 Post subject: Re: Gyisache
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:46 pm 
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Tortanick wrote:
utilae wrote:
My thought is that each Gyisache individual has his own little ship, which funnily enough is fighter size. This means that everyone on a larger ship has their own fighter onboard, so they can escape if the ship they are on is about to be destroyed or in great danger. I'm not sure how this would work in gameplay terms. But hopefully it makes more sense now.


Actually I find myself more confused by this. I could see them having an escape ship but I just can't see them leaving the herd and flying a smaller, weaker ship towards the enemy.

They won't fly a smaller weaker ship (the fighter or similar size) towards the enemy, unless they are in a nice size group of these fighters. I was talking about them fleeing battle.


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 Post subject: Re: Gyisache
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:54 am 
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With utilae's permission I'd like to present the Black Gyisache Squadron (an obvious homage to the rumoured black Spathi Squadron) a literally fearless and insanely violent band of pirates who roam the Orion sector causing causing bloody mayhem. Like most Gyisache who lack there race's characteristic cowardliness the Black Gyisache are clinically insane. Like a lot of my work they're also useing placeholder names.


Alice and Bob

(note, Alice and Bob share a body. While both think Bob is older Alice was the original inhabitant)

Bob may come across as cold but he genuinely cares about the people under his care, Alice however has a special place in his heart, Bob's entire life literally revolves around keeping Alice happy and safe, to this end he founded the black Gyisache squadron as a relatively safe outlet for Alice's limitless aggression, if he wanted to fight Bob made sure he'd fight with heavy weaponry and squadmates at his side.
In battle Bob is a competent tactician, although relatively inexperienced at strategy, he tends to take a command role while leaving the actual fighting to Alice.

Alice was practically a stillborn and spent the first several years of her life in a vegetative state due to brain damage. While doctors were eventually able to fix enough for him to leave the bed mental oddities would follow Alice for the rest of his life, the most prominent of these was that the all-encompassing fear that plagued Gyisache society manifested itself instead as aggression, had Alice been born on Miziu he'd almost certainly have died the first time he tried to attack one of the many carnivores that migrate annually from the lowlands, however life on the colonies wasn't quite as dangerous and while Alice survived his permanent aggression frequently landed him in deep trouble; to cope with repeated injury as well as being very badly adjusted for the world Alice created an imaginary friend Bob who'd help him deal with the world and take any blows meant for Alice. Over time Bob grew into a full split personality and Alice normally takes a back seat while Bob controls the body.
In battle Alice doesn't particularly care how he fights so long as he wins, in practice Alice's tactics vary depending on what Bob thinks is best for the situation, however unlike many in the Black Gyisache Squadron Alice's fighting style is designed to keep him alive.


Tiny

Tiny hasn't got any single issue, but rather he is the result of several different traits: An inability to feel pain, a hedonistic nature, a fondness for physical action and a utter lack of empathy or even comprehension that his views aren't universal. He also has dwarfism. The result of these is that Tiny lacks fear, enjoys a good fight and is unable to understand that the people he kills don't see it as a fun game like he dose. Tiny was invited to join the Black Gyisache Squadron by Bob and having the time of his life, he doesn't turn on the his squadmates because as Bob explained “its more fun to play teams”
In battle Tiny's fighting style is what you'd expect from someone can't feel pain and simply wants to have fun: he charges right in using his small size and speed to stay within enemy ranks where he's almost impossible to fight without friendly fire.


Melvin

Of all the Black Gyisache Squadron Melvin is probably the one who suffered the most from his mental issues: the more Melvin feels, be it a physical feeling or an emotional one, the weaker that feeling becomes, over time he simply can't feel it at all. By the time he was a young adult the regular feelings of day to day life were lost and desperate to feel anything at all Melvin turned to self harm, eventually blinding himself in two eyes before he could no longer feel pain. Eventually the feelings of battle became the last Melvin could feel and he signed up with the Black Gyisache Squadron in search of combat.
While at first Melvin's fighting style was that of a reasonably talented yet inexperienced fighter as the feeling of battle started to fade Melvin became more and more reckless, now he fights every battle as though he was trying to get himself killed rarely making the slightest attempt to avoid incoming fire. Melvin has a suicide pact with his Squadmates, the day he feels nothing in battle they'll kill him although the way he fights its unlikely he'll live long enough.
While all the Black Gyisache Squadron tend to have quite a few scars Melvin is in a league of his own: One eye is a cybernetic implant replacing a lost eye from his self mutilation days, the other mutilated eye, along with the entire eye-stalk and the lower jaw have been blown off in combat, along side a chunk of his right flank and one leg.


In gameplay terms I can think of two ways they could work, either they'll act as a rare random event, basically a rarer but much worse equivalent of pirates, or they'll act as ship leader like in Master of Orion 2:
Alice and Bob will have a tactics bonus (not sure what that dose), a small leadership bonus, a small weapons bonus and the battlelust bonus: a buff to all stats when the ship is in combat.
Tiny will have a short range weapons and a fighter bonus and battlelust.
Melvin will get a major defensive bonus, some sort of stoicism bonus that mitigates performance loss in a damaged ship and a sadistic bonus that gives a buff to all stats after destroying a ship, value and duration is proportional to the ships cost.
All Black Gyisache get the fearless bonus: never retreat even if ordered, and being a herd animal this may spread to nearby ships, then again since each ship is an entire heard maybe not.


Last edited by Tortanick on Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gyisache
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:25 am 
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Great stuff. I like your characters, hehe they are funny and strange. But will no doubt be good in battle.

Yea, I like the idea of leaders, and a special is also good. Kind of like the Antarans in Moo2.

Good going so far. Don't know how the darkness of this story and characters will fit in with FreeOrion, but I am sure it can handle some dark tones story wise.


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 Post subject: Re: Gyisache
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:34 pm 
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Glad to hear you like it :)


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