FreeOrion

Are there any Native & Passive races/creatures which exist so far in the planned FreeOrion Galaxy already?

Whether they be non-intelligent, semi-intelligent, or intelligent. I am thinking of this as an atmospheric idea, which adds an "alive" feeling while playing.

If not, list some ideas here that you think would make for good ones.

I am thinking of a few to do with the Elements of the planet. Each planet may have a unique organism that lives on a planet in abundance, and this is randomised, but does not mean that every planet will have creatures like this already.

Search the forums for "natives" or similar terms. There have been numerous threads discussing various aspects of natives, minor races, space monsters, etc.

here are my thoughts

_________________
—• Read this First before posting Game Design Ideas!
—• Design Philosophy
—•— My Ideas, Organized —•— Get an Avatar —•— Acronyms —•—

Well my thoughts are that except for 'presapients' one should not have "Passive" Races.

In my model, a "minor"/Native race would just be an AI controlled race that has a REALLY bad starting position

ie they have to research a few 'pre-techs' that all 'normal player' races have such as
"Civilization" (takes you out of the Stone Age)->
"Industrialization"->
"Spacefaring"(takes you to something like modern society)->
"Stellar Era" [this tech makes them the same as any other player]

each of those techs would increase defenses/construction meter/max resource meters/max population, etc. eventually to the level they are for normal starting races.

"minor" races could start off with more or less race picks

they could also start off with the same (or more) 'tech' as a normal player does... but say only start off with 0.01 population unit, or almost 0 on the construction/various resource meters.

I also very much support the idea of natives in FreeOrion, as they add to the galactic variety and can hopefully offer AI/player empires something useful that they don`t already have.

So here are my current thoughts about natives/minor races:

Minor races should have some sort of a description of their history, culture etc. similar to the playable races. It would also be nice if you could see a picture of a representative of the minor race in question, when you meet them (Perhaps together with other information about the race in question?).

Minor races should have some racial attributes (race picks) that would make them more unique from other races and would probably make them more useful to the player/AI. This way for example a scientifically minded normal race could benefit from having a minor race in its empire that is good in production, as the colony /star system of this minor race could produce things more effectively than colonies populated by the scientifically minded race.

Minor races should have some diplomatic options. These options could include things like: offer to join the player`s/AI`s empire, make protectorate (and allow the minor race in question to continue to live and develop on their own under the protection of your empire. Possible diplomatic bonuses for the empire that does this.), influence the minor race to be more willing to join your empire. However to underline that these races aren`t as advanced as normal races, and possibly to make the minor races easier to implement, the diplomatic contacts with them could be handled in a more primitive fashion than contacts with normal races. Perhaps with some kind of an option window next to the planets of these races?

I also like the idea that Krikkitone has with various levels of development for the minor races and their ability to develop until they finally achieve a normal race status. Since this way they wouldn`t be locked forever to be races with severe limitations. The galaxy would feel more natural if there weren’t any artificial obstacles in the development of these races. However the only problem that I see with this is that, as I am hoping that we could have nice animated diplomatic contacts between normal races, giving the minor races a possibility to also become a normal race might add to the work load of artists considerably, and give very little in return as these races would probably achieve normal race status only in very late game when the original normal races would already be quite superior in power compared to these new comers. So it might not be worth of all the effort to allow the minor races to become completely similar to normal races.

The overall idea that I have with these thoughts, is that the minor races should be more than just a name and a number next to a planet, like they were in MOO 3. As intelligent beings they should have some sort of a voice of their own.

_________________
What is your favourite alien species and WHY?
Preliminary thoughts about diplomacy
Some unfinished ideas for specials

Well, think of it this way, by that time they'll probably be someone's serfs anyways....

That's really what I always liked most about tha concept of minor races. You be nice to them and they make useful minions. Simple eh?

_________________
Computer programming is fun.

Well as for Diplomacy/Art,
In a Campaign game, the "Minors" could just use lower quality art
In an "Open game"... You could play any of the races including ones that were "Minor" in the campaign... and "Campaign/Story Races" could be Minor ones in your game.

You could also have Minor Races simply be random Custom modifications of "Story" races... give them a different skin/carapce color or a different uniform/armor/heraldry, etc.

I like this idea. Maybe use the flag system from SE5 and just give them a randomly selected flag that hasn't been used yet?

_________________
Computer programming is fun.

I see no reason why that idea wouldn't work, it could also be used creatively to give more depth to various species. Rather than "the same race but now a minor race" we could do it so that when a race is chosen as a minor race its description and stats are adjusted to reflect the race at a different point in its history, either before or after they were a great space-faring race.

For example The Chato'matou'Gormoshk as a minor race might be just the Chato'matou. Reasonable researchers, useless for anything else but they are very easy to keep happy and eat nothing.

Or the Abaddonnians could be a minor race after Mother's hold was broken. After years without any freedom they'll be unable to run a government and fight like madmen until no one's left if you invade. However they're quite willing to trade food for production points at pretty good rates. (I'm basing this on Eastern Europe, Abaddonnians behave a lot like humans and the collapse of the USSR is the only government collapse I'm even vaguely familiar with)

I agree that the species description should reflect weather it is a minor or major species. But why recycle them? We have a ton of alien ideas. I don't see a reason to make potentially confusing variations of the NPC species.

It would be much more interesting to design minor species with some flaw or weakness (reflected in lower overall stats) that explain why they don't haven't advanced to star-faring tech by themselves.

_________________
—• Read this First before posting Game Design Ideas!
—• Design Philosophy
—•— My Ideas, Organized —•— Get an Avatar —•— Acronyms —•—

I think it requires more work to explain why all the Major Races ARE at the same point in development, than why some races would not be. I see nothing wrong with keeping all the "race stats" the same for a minor race and just start them off missing some key techs (ie industrialization, writing, agriculture)/buildings only 1 population, etc.

I think there Should be some "race picks" however, that have to do with your starting level of development. (ie population, economy meters, construction meters, techs, buildings/ships, etc.) as well as ones making your home world/system better

Those picks would be different between a 'major' and a 'minor' race, but they wouldn't have any effect on the race beyond the first turn.

I don't know what you are saying.


1) It's boring. If all species are equally competent (in stats) there's less to distinguish one from another. Species who are designed with a significant flaw(s), like the Trayeggadora can be interesting in ways that aren't possible if overall they are just as capable galactic emperors as anybody else.

2) It's likely to be a lot of work to create the full diplomacy stuff and ships for species who generally will be quickly absorbed or annihilated. Which would effectively limit the number of minor species.

3) Adding "minor" species to your empire is likely to be overpowered if those species don't have lower stats. The advantage of having a few Psylon or Klackon planets in your empire is obvious. It's likely overpowered if you are lucky enough to find Psylon and Klackon equivalents waiting for you to absorb as natives on a low-tech planet.

4) For a sane interface (how many different "red" empires can you distinguish?) and manageable AI calculations there is probably going a limit on the number of empires per game. Thus we can't have a lot of minor species if they are simply NPC empires with a slower start. They are in a wholly different category, in my proposal, in part so there can be a lot of them, but without cluttering up the diplomacy screen or galaxy map. They would all be considered "neutral" unless you get them to join your empire.



Maybe but that's a different issue from what's being discussed here.

_________________
—• Read this First before posting Game Design Ideas!
—• Design Philosophy
—•— My Ideas, Organized —•— Get an Avatar —•— Acronyms —•—

There is no problem explaining why "race X" is farther behind than "race y"... what is hard is explaining why "race a" is at the same stage as "race b" [the normal situation between major races... that requires a special storyline]




Well no reason why some races Couldn't be designed as minor races only.... but then why bother with them, even the Natives in MOO2 had +3 food a major bonus (balanced by their 0% growth rate, but...)


I think you misunderstand... I propose having a general pool of races that can be either "major" or "minor" in any given game. There would be no reason not to also have some races that are "strictly minor" [ie minimal diplomacy, art, etc.]... although the player should be able to allow them in either for themselves or for the Computer (because they like the minimal graphics that have been done, the idea of that species, in which case some of their races would have boring generic ships/diplomacy art [and in which case they would get extra picks to make them standard blanced races.]



There would only be a small number of them [getting them is easier but you get less of them], and you would have some of the same problems as dealing with a large population of them that you conquered. (ie 'diversity' issues that are designed to counteract the specialization benefits of a multi-species empire, as well as the difficulties of relocating populations)



Here I'd agree, but allow Empires to be forced back and forth between the Major (considered in diplomacy/maps, etc.)<-> Minor ("invisible", generic neutrals) . You would be in danger of becoming a Minor one if you are a) not the human b) automatically if you are without startravel c)less than one starsytem, etc.

So if you play a game with a low # of starting empires and a high level of "natives" then throughout the game new empires could be popping up... up to a certain point (ie near the empire limit)

When they are not an empire they would be "managed" by a much simpler AI. When they transition to an empire, more complete details are provided and the "player AI" takes over.

One point on Color, because the empires will probably spread out in a totally interconnected group, four colors might be enough map wise (although there is diplomacy+ships... for that flags+extra colors might be useful as well)

I don't know if it's "hard", but i've already devised IMHO a good explanation, and you can find others around the forum.


I didn't say that the best stat of a minor species should be worse than the worse stat of a major species. (Is that clear?) In my view, a minor species could provide moderate farming skills to an overlord with bad farming skills, but wouldn't be of much use to an overlord that specialized in farming. Except possibly on their homeworld, because every species (major and minor) gets a production bonus on their homeworld. I describe some other possible advantages in my wiki section on minor species.


I think the empire number limit is an important point which IIRC we failed to bring up in the discussions on diplomacy and rebellions and factions.

It seems kludgy to allow any indigene to develop into an empire, but magically stop them from crossing the threshold until there's a "free spot" for a new empire. What is that pre-empire doing while it waits? Building up a huge surplus of ships and/or resources which it can't use until another empire falls?

Spawning new empires due to rebellion and/or civil war seems to be less troubling. Of course it still couldn't happen unless there was a free-spot for a new empire, but the arbitrary limit on empires is less obvious to the player, since unhappy citizens can do other things than splinter, i.e. riot, or rebel and join an existing empire.

The idea that an empire could go back and forth from major to minor status is also troublesome. An unlucky empire may be pushed back to it's homeworld, but that might be too highly fortified to take easily. They might also have a significant fleet somewhere. I don't think such an empire should be taken off the galaxy map and classed "minor". If the game was at the empire # limit when such an empire was demoted to "minor", a previously minor species could suddenly turn to an empire, and arbitrarily prevent the unlucky empire from ever regaining it's power.

IMHO it is much less problematic to class each starting species as either "major" or "minor" at the start and leave things that way. Minor species would be confined to their homeworld, until adopted by a major, and would only develop tech and construct stuff appropriate to a planet-bound species.

You did give me an interesting idea for an exception. Some players would have a lot of fun if they could literally "bomb an enemy back to the stone age". I.E. if an empire is down to it's last planet, and was sufficiently damaged, the could permanently degrade to a primitive status... i.e. their culture and society are so thoroughly destroyed, that they have no hope of regaining their former empire.



"...probably spread out in a totally interconnected group" is not assurance enough to design an interface with only 4 empire colors. It's quite possible for a single system to support more than 4 empires. And especially during intense fighting and invasions, empires will end up with disconnected bits. That's why we've spent so much time discussing supply lines.

Each major empire needs their own color,. The "neutral", "minor" powers can all share a color, probably grey or white.

_________________
—• Read this First before posting Game Design Ideas!
—• Design Philosophy
—•— My Ideas, Organized —•— Get an Avatar —•— Acronyms —•—

Should players who capture a minor race be aloud to colonise new planets with them? If a race's key weakness is that they suck at farming and you capture some moderate farmers then any players skilled enough to manage a two race empire has essentially removed his race weakness, especially if the player is lucky enough to find the minor race early it might be an advantage too far. This goes double if the two races are on opposite sides of the EP wheel.

The other thing is that IMO it will be more fun if capturing a minor race actually took a little effort, while some natives might be stoneage or medieval others might be low tech space-fairing races that can fight back, just not very well. They could be extremely limited, a few colonies in adjacent systems with some minor defences or they could essentially be a very week empire who you can negotiate with, trade with or invade (galactic civilisations did this). In addition to their low race stats there could be a few special rules for minor empires:
apart from a few core worlds every time you get close to attacking a planet the population evacuates, this prevents players from getting too many native planets.
They only colonise if they have colonies in ajacent systems and never if a major empire already owns a planet in a system.
If their population likes you enough then you can offer them membership in your empire
If you trade with them enough (you may have to sell at a loss) you can take over neo-imperalism style. (actually that might be fun to do to a major empire )
While invading them will have similar diplomatic effects to invading anyone else, they're smaller.


I've always favoured having a story mode covering eons (ending with the player trying to outlive the end of the universe), in this race a might reach the stars, form an empire then go extinct before race b is born. In the random galaxy mode no one will care if race a and race b start at the same time. Just like, for example, no one cares in Dawn of War multiplayer if Space Marines and Chaos are on the same team.


Awesome idea, but what dose that give you other than braging rights? Might I propose that rather than doing it to there last planet you can do it to any planet, stoneageing then occupying is an alternative to an upfront invasion, diplomatically its worse for you and when you occupy the planet the stoneage natives have worse stats than normal. However stoneage populations will adopt your primary race's ethos makeing them easier to keep happy.