FreeOrion

First things first, apologies for beating dead horses. Also apologies for stealing people's ideas, where I have.
Also pre-emptive apologies, but I have a feeling I'll be making a few of these threads. Hence the last part of the thread name.
And before anybody says it, yes I know I'm mostly wasting my energy here, and most of this goes against your KISS principle, but oh well.
Also, this is a long read, so go make yourself a coffee.


Chapter I: Sensor/Stealth Revision
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First of all, I propose that the current sensor/stealth system be revised.
Currently we have:


Now, I don't know about anyone else, but in my opinion, ambushes and reconnaissance are tactically vital. As such, applied in freeorion, stealth and sensors are tactically vital. Or at least, should be. However, things should not be arbitrary, as is the case with the current system, where there is a cutoff, and above it, the ship cannot be detected at all.

My proposal is for an object to have a chance of detecting another object, based on the sensor/stealth values of each, and there would be "levels" of detection.
In addition, parts that subtract from stealth would only do so when in use. For example, an engine would only generate noise if the ship is moving, if it is standing still, it would not reduce from the stealth of the ship, though I believe this is already part of the current system.

Tentatively, the formulae would be:

Detection Offset = sqrt(abs(Stealth / Sensors)) x -(sign of(Stealth)) x k
where k is some constant which is deemed appropriate. For this example, I'll use 1.
Minimum value for sensors is 1.
sign of(Stealth) simply means -1 if Stealth is negative, and 1 if Stealth is positive.
Distance Offset = -(Distance / c) ^ 2
where c is some constant which is deemed appropriate. For this example, I'll use 250.
Random factor = A (pseudo)random number between 0 and 2
The range of the random number will need to be tweaked as appropriate.

The three above would then be summed and compared against the following table.
Once again, the values here will need to be tweaked as appropriate.

less than -3: No detection
-3 to -2: Blip detected
-2 to -1.65: Object and velocity detected (speed and heading of object)
-1.65 to -1.3: Rough object characteristics detected (size, shape, allegiance, existence of shield, etc, identified)
-1.3 to -1: Most object characteristics detected (type (no specific details) and number of weapons, engine, armour, approx shield strength, etc)
greater than -1: Detailed object characteristics detected (approx weapon strength, approx armour strength, etc)

These calculation would be taken at intervals. So once per turn, twice per turn, once per two turns, etc. Which could create an interesting choice for sensor parts, high precision but low scanning frequency or low precision but high scanning frequency sensors. But that is a topic for a later chapter/volume.

So lets take an example. For now, we'll assume all sensors have the same scanning frequency.
Ship A has 10 stealth and 5 sensors that, when activated, give -4 stealth, and an engine that, when activated, gives -4 stealth.
Ship B has 5 stealth and 10 sensors that, when activated, give -7 stealth, and an engine that, when activated, gives -7 stealth.

If both ships begin 500 units from each other and (unknowingly) head towards each other at 100 units per turn for ship B and 50 units per turn for ship A at full speed and full sensors:
Ship A scans:
Detection Offset = sqrt(abs(-9 / 5)) x -(-1) ~= 1.34
Distance Offset = -(500 / -250) ^ 2 = -4
(Pseudo)Random Number = 1.55
Summation = 1.34 + -4 + 1.55 = -1.11
Result: Most object characteristics detected.

Ship B scans:
Detection Offset = sqrt(abs(3 / 10)) x -(1) ~= -0.55
Distance Offset = -(500 / -250) ^ 2 = -4
(Pseudo)Random Number = 1.81
Summation = -0.55 + -4 + 1.81 = -1.64
Result: Rough object characteristics detected.

However, for this to work, sensor value must always be above 1. Any value below 1 can be treated as either 1 or not having functional sensors.
Stealth, on the other hand, is unlimited in both directions. It can be said that stealth 0 is an object not making any attempt to disguise itself, a negative value is an object which is radiating an unusual amount of energy, which can be detected, and a positive value is an object which is actively attempting to mask its presence.
Further, blips should be detected every so often that are randomly generated, rather than each blip being an enemy ship for certain.
This would also mean that with early tech sensors, a ship would not be able to see the entire solar system, which is preferable to the earliest ships seeing the entire solar system. This would also lend credibility to the idea of intensive exploration, where a scout ship would need to remain in a system for a specific amount of time in order to discern all available information about it. This time could be a function of it's sensory ability.
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Chapter II: Hulls
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I believe it was mentioned somewhere that hulls should be renamed from "Small," "Medium," "Large," etc to "Light," "Medium," "Heavy," etc.
I would say that there should be a number hulls classes. Obviously there should be different shapes and configurations, but they should all fit roughly into the categories.
The categories being: "Destroyer," "Frigate," "Light Cruiser," "Heavy Cruiser," "Battlecruiser," and last but not least "Battleship," for the combat ships; "Escort Carrier," "Light Carrier," "Heavy Carrier," "Battle Carrier," and "Fleet Carrier" for the carriers; and of course the miscellaneous ones of "Colony Ship," "Troop Transport," and "Scout."

Ships would then be classed as per those categories. So, for example, if I use a Light Cruiser hull and design a ship and call that design the "Phantom," then produce a ship and that ship is called the "Hammer," the full designation for that ship would be the "Hammer, a Phantom class Light Cruiser." If I were building a ship, I would be building a "Phantom class Light Cruiser."
However, if a ship was using a hull that would normally be considered a Heavy Cruiser, but does not fill all the slots of the hull, thus having it underpowered, it would fall to the category below and become a Light Cruiser.
Further, if a ship lacked weapons, or had a large fighter complement, or met other conditions, it would move to a different category, such as "Heavy Carrier," or "Troop Transport."

It's not much different than using small, medium, large, etc hulls. However, I just prefer military designations. Further, you can look quickly at the name and tell the rough power of the ship from it's class. Ie, a battleship would be more powerful, but generally slower than a battlecruiser.
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Chapter III: All Objects Should Have Basic Stealth Values
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Continuing on from Chapter I, all objects should have a stealth value, whether it be negative or positive. Planets would have perhaps between -250 and -1,000 stealth; moons between -100 and -200; asteroids and other small objects between 0 and -50; and stars between -10,000 and -100,000. All of these depend, obviously, on the size of the object, and in the case of suns and gas giants, the amount of energy being released. Some objects would also reflect or absorb more or less energy, and thus that would affect their stealth values.

In the case of ships, I believe destroyers, being smaller, should have a greater in-built stealth value than battleships. It simply makes sense for a larger ship to be detected easier than a smaller ship. Further, it would grant a purpose to smaller ships and hulls even in the late game, as they would still be stealthier than the larger ships.
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Chapter IV: Engine As Parts And Multiple Engines
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I know it has already been decided that engines will be integral to hulls, but hey, as you can tell by now, I'm mostly ranting here.

So, I present just one possible scenario where you would want customisable engines.

Let's say you build a scout/spy ship.
Now, because it's a spy, it needs to be stealthy, right? So, if you had the choice, you'd stick on it a stealthy engine, with a slow/moderate speed rating. And also, of course, some stealth part, cloak generators, jammers, and the like.
However, because its purpose is to go into a system, perhaps ahead of your fleet, take reconnaissance, and avoid danger, this slow engine is insufficient if it should be detected.
Thus, you would put on one/two fast, but noisy engines, in case of emergency. So that it can get away from danger fast. You could also use this ship to lure some ships away from the enemy fleet into an ambush, or simply away from their main fleet, as they chase your ship aimlessly, and your ship can cut those two engine and go back to being stealthy.
Speaking of ambushes, you could also possibly design ships specialised for ambushes, with the above configuration of one stealthy engine and one/two fast engines. The stealthy engine can be used to manoeuvre into position and full thrust can be used either to escape of pursue.

The idea being that the ship uses its single stealthy engine to move about a system undetected. But once it has been detected, you've designed the ship so that it's not a sitting duck, with those one/two powerful, but noisy engines. It can use these to escape, or to pursue a fleeing enemy that has realised your strength.
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I) It is planned that the current actions of a ship, i.e. moving, firing, etc. will alter the ships stealth meter. In other words, a ship that can sit still without being seen may not be able move without being seen, and a ship that can move without being seen will probably not be able o fire without being seen. It should require significantly greater stealth technology than your opponent's detection technology, as well as long range weaponry. The amount of time a ship is visible should be reasonable time for a counter attack, and it should be very difficult for a ship to disappear again once it has been spotted.

II) You don't seem to be acquainted with the current model for ships hulls. They will come in multiple shapes as well as sizes. Colony ships will be like any other ships, though probably with a special hull shape designed for that purpose.

III) Meters go from 0-100. Reflected or absorbed energy will not be a statistic in this game. Obviously a ships size will partially determine it's stealth rating.

IV) Adding multiple engines to a ship is already too complicated. Having these engines controllable in combat is simply overkill. There will be sufficient ways to make combat tactically interesting without introducing customizable engines.

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Warning: Antarans in dimensional portal are closer than they appear.

If you are just here to rant, i guess that's OK.

But if you wanted to try to change someone's mind you would need to spend less time describing the math of your preferred implementation, and much more time explaining how your idea offers richer and/or simpler gameplay compared to the other options. Demonstrating an understanding of the stated reasons for why things are the way they are is also important.

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Well, yeah, it was more of a rant. And from reading some of the other threads, there's not much point trying to change anybody's mind around here.
And I'm really not quite sure WHY the sensor/detection system is now as it is. The only reason I can see is your desire for simplicity. Which is all well and good, but the current system is TOO simple.

And fine, I'll make some attempt at explaining it.

Okay, well, for starters, the current system just seems far too arbitrary. It's either you see them at this point, or you don't. Further, there is a very arbitrary line past where the ship just suddenly comes into full view. Now, even without using the realism argument, this just seems far too arbitrary. At the very least, even if you do not wish for a chance of detection, as I've described above, there should be stages of detection, such as a blip on the radar, and object has been detected with x velocity, the object is a hostile ship, the object has so much offensive and defensive capability, etc.

Considering it from a gameplay point, rather than just seeing enemy ships suddenly pop into full view as if they just suddenly warped in can seem too sudden if the average range is made quite small. If the average range is made quite large, then you simply gain too much detail about the enemy. Hence levels of detail of detection would be warranted. This way you would be able to tell from far away the approximate number of enemy ships, but would be unable to reasonably discern their strength until they got closer. Also, it would lend usefulness to reconnaissance ships, fast agile scout ships, during battle. They would be used to get in for a closer look to better judge the enemy's position. Also, it should be possible, with a high enough tech level for ships to be able to generate enough noise to create ghosts. This would be where blips would be essential. With a high enough ability in sensors and stealth, a fleet would be able to create enough sensor noise to make itself appear twice as large, forcing the enemy to retreat, believing the battle to be already lost.

Okay, admittedly that was more of a rant than an explanation.
But basically, sensors/stealth should neither play such a backseat nor such an arbitrary role in battles.

Oh, I just realised something else. No matter how stealthy a ship is, even if it never detected, with either the current system, or some other system, when it opens fire, you should be able to return fire. You may not be able to see the enemy ship, it may be perfectly disguised, but you sure as anything can tell that there's incoming fire coming from "over there" and return fire to the general location. Now, I believe there currently isn't any accuracy or chance to hit in the battle math? Perhaps then, the damage dealt can just be scaled down by a factor, which is calculated from how hidden that ship is from the attackers. So perhaps ranging from 5% to 95% of normal damage.
Now, this may seem at first needlessly complicated, but consider the situation where a player builds a ship with one weapon part and every other part stealth, and their stealth technology is sufficiently large enough for them to remain unseen even when firing. This one single ship could then decimate an entire fleet, or at the very least force it to retreat.

Okay, yeah, that's enough ranting for now.

EDIT: Oh, and I almost forgot. Two pairs of eyes are better than one. Meaning multiple ships should have a greater chance of detecting a ship than a single ship. With the current system, two ships with identical sensors are the exact same as a single ship. If there was a chance for each ship to detect an enemy ship, then it would make sense when setting up detection grids to use more ships, rather just a few scattered ones that will manage to spot anything. Hmmm. That probably doesn't make much, but oh well, not thinking that clearly right now.

EDIT2: Oh, and both of you seem to have misread the first part of my post:

EDIT3: Oh, and for multiple engines, you could just have a stealth on/stealth off button. Which may or may not also turn other things on/off, such as sensors.

IIRC, there will be stages of detection so that you can't see every detail of a ship as soon as you see it, but I'm not sure. That might be troublesome on the battle map when you don't know exactly how close you need to get to scan something thoroughly.

Also, it's fine if you already know your suggestions go against our design philosophy, but this criticism helps you gain a deeper understanding of why, and what we have planned for this game conceptually.

_________________
Warning: Antarans in dimensional portal are closer than they appear.

Well, I don't think it Should be theoretically impossible to fire without being seen... especially for something like launching Fighters

If you have a high enough stealth, and your weapons are "silent" enough, ie low Stealth penalty, and your opponent has a bad enough detection then it should be possible.

It should however be impossible to fire without being seen against the 'best' detector of the same tech level.

Some of the ideas can fit into KISS.

Also it might be good to have "stealth engines" that can move 'slowly' without the normal stealth penalty of movement (but have the option of going full speed)

so a ship could have a stealth mode where it moved at 'stealth speed' (if it had any) used 'stealth detection' (some detection might have a stealth penalty for the full capacity... ALL should have some detection ability) and used 'stealth weapons' (ie ones with a minimal stealth penalty)

So.. Stealth penalty creating devices
Engines: most have a 'stealth speed' of 0... some have some actual 'stealth speed'
Detectors: ALL have a 'stealth detection' > 0.... in some it is closer to their full detection
Weapons: don't have a 'stealth mode' but some weapons could have a "silenced" modification that reduces their "stealth penalty"... those would get used in 'stealth mode' [all weapons have a LARGE stealth penalty for firing...to prevent the unabe to fire back mode]

Well, I'm not saying it should be impossible to fire without being seen. What I'm saying is, if you are fired upon by even a ship that has perfect stealth technology, you'll know you're being fired upon, and the rough direction of it. You'd then probably go nuts and just blast away in that general direction, and would actually hit something every so often. At no point would you actually see the other ship, unless you managed to do enough damage to it to take it's cloak offline, but you'd know you are being fired upon, and would return fire, even if it is just in the general direction.

If you don't like that idea, or think it's too complicated, imagine having your entire fleet wiped or forced to retreat from your best shipyard because the other guy got a ship, piled on stealth parts and one weapon part and you could never fire back at it.

EDIT: Oh, and yes, like Krikkitone said above me, all ships should have a "be as stealthy as you can" option in game. Just a button, with a hotkey that toggles it on/off.

And bigjoe, it would be helpful if there was a thread/wiki page which contains what's planned and why. Currently, I believe it's only the design pad, which really doesn't contain that much, or trawling through the design archive, if you've got a few months to spare.

I think being forced back th the shipyard is fine if

1. the other guy is sufficiently ahead of you in technology that his stealth beats your detectors (shoulld be a wide gap required)
OR
2. You didn't bring any good detectors


I Don't think you should be able to hit Anything firing at a "general area"

Firing from stealth should be VERY hard and require enough of a tech lead that if you had focused on conventional weaponry, your ship would be powerful enough to wipe the floor with them anyways [but you focused on stealth with its other benefits]

Although I think IF might be an exception, I think it would be interesting if you could get hit with Missiles/fighters, and see them easily enough, but not the ship that launched them.

Fun fact: with reasonably effective passive infrared detectors, it's possible to see the exhaust from the space shuttle's maneuvering thrusters from as far away as the asteroid belt. Furthermore, the necessity of maintaining an internal temperature of about 300K (compared to the 2-3K of empty space), as well radiating waste heat from its power core is going to light it up like a metaphorical Christmas Tree. Therefore, even if a ship is "stealthy" enough to keep the enemy from acquiring a target lock, it is still going to announce its presence quite loudly due to the amount of infrared light that it will be giving off.

I know that this is a realism argument, but it might be fun if players were put into a position to consider realistic tactics, such as placing their fleet between a star and an enemy fleet in order to hide their presence.



Suggestion: all ships, once in system, have a thermal output based on their size and engine activity that can be detected from anywhere in system (the limited speed of c is not relevant because the ships will be traveling much slower than that in-system). However, in order to actually get a weapons' lock or make meaningful observations about weapons loadouts, etc., each side must close to telescopically-visual range (~10,000 km). Missiles and fighters/bombers could, of course, be fired/launched from outside that range (although I wonder what a space-fighter could do that it couldn't do better if the cockpit and weapons were replaced by a nuclear warhead).

Feel free to ignore this post.