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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:22 pm 
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Space Dragon

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
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This thread is for providing feedback for the fourth and fifth iterations of the imperial stockpile. Please indicate which iteration you are referring to.

Feedback Rev.1 - transfer ratio, use limit by tech; too low to be useful
Feedback Rev.2 - tweaking rev1: high early transfer ratio, high late use limit
Feedback Rev.3 - input/use limit, limits increase by tech+focus or species trait
Rev 4. - use limit increase by tech+focus or species trait
The input limits are by default unlimited and may be turned on again by using a rule on game start. (FreeOrion_2018-01-29.13902ea_Test_Win32_Setup.exe)

Rev 5. - use limit increase by tech+focus or species trait
PR1963 has only balancing changes, no changes to the stockpile mechanism.
AI for Sly by dilvish (0507f1 , this_ai_is_sly).

Weekly Build 2018-02-12.c8e8372, the following changes regarding Sly and stockpile are coming in :.
  • sly on gas giants have half the population (in effect the population is mostly like it would be on a medium size planet)
  • sly now 1000% stockpile
  • flux bubble: you now need to research it, more expensive/hitpoints
  • special refueling for sly on gas giants: 0.1 fuel extra per turn
  • space elevator on gas giants gives only +3 supply instead +4
  • sly minus one supply
  • planets get only +5 for populated gas giant generator in the same system
  • no terraforming for sly
  • Sly AI improvements (less outpost ships)

Please give feedback on:
* misuses of imperial stockpile (non-stockpiling species)
* impact of mixing laenfa with other species
* balancing of laenfa with imperial stockpile

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Last edited by Ophiuchus on Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:12 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:56 pm 
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Psionic Snowflake
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The limit has been removed from master for a while now, right?

First time I tested it, a few days ago, I was going to post and issue right away because I didn't see any warning mark of wasted PPs even if I had not queued any item in the production list. Then I realised there was no wasting because all unspent production gets into IS.
Sly, and to a lesser extent Laenfa, can draw points from the IS at a relatively good pace. With Sly, turn 40, 6 colonies + homeworld, no IS techs researched, subterranean researched, I get to draw around 7 PPS per turn from IS (and growing), which allows for a fair acceleration of coloniser production on far away planets.
I like it this way.
Maybe some percentage of excess production could go to waste, but then we would be again fighting against micromanagement.


My only (so far) unattended game that pitched Sly AI against Egassem and Eaxaw gave a blatant victory for Sly. Interesting enough, this Sly AI played a relatively normal strategy, getting a huge army sooner than the other two AIs. It first encountered Egassem and pwned them hard, while the Eaxaw were confined to a single arm of the 2-arm spire. So I understand that, first, AI handles AI good enough, and second, that the lack of supply is not a problem for Sly. Maybe they are still OP.
Right now I'm playing a game with 2 Laenfas, 2 Slys (one mine), 1 Trith, 1 Eaxaw and 1 Cray, and the best empires so far are one of the Laenfas and the Cray. Both Sly are below average (except my Sly in terms of PPs, which are the best, I'm getting more GGs than the other Sly).
Edit: update for that game, turn 80, 12 colonies plus homeworld, 260 population (got xenological genetics), still no IS techs, I can draw 25 PPs per turn from IS, no planet is ever set to stockpile focus but probably I should because I'm getting too much PPs into the IS (200+ right now), but for now I'll try to stick to industry/research focus.


I think the bubble hull must not be unlocked from start, not even for Sly. A colony base is as expensive as a bubble coloniser (and will be just more expensive once the cost of colony base hull is raised to 3 from 1), which seems so odd, although they require shipyard and orb. drydock first... Having to research the tech first will make more sense and look better balanced.


Funny thing and not related to this thread, I've seen in all my games with Sly that AI hates me. I mean, each empire hates me more than any other enemy. As soon as I colonise a GG in a system with another GG, the nearest enemy will send (unless they can't reach it because out of supply) a fleet of armed ships to stay idle in that system indefinitely (whithout sending anything else), preventing me from colonising the other GG in there until I get military forces or system mines to drive them out. This AI could be conquering natives that are closer to their core space but it prefers to come and bother me. I kinda like it.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:30 pm 
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Space Dragon

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Oberlus wrote:
My only (so far) unattended game that pitched Sly AI against Egassem and Eaxaw gave a blatant victory for Sly. Interesting enough, this Sly AI played a relatively normal strategy, ... Maybe they are still OP.

Was that with your modifications? Master doesnt have the population nerf yet.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:49 pm 
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Psionic Snowflake
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Yes, confirmed, my universe/Planet.cpp file has "case SZ_GASGIANT: return 4;". That's the only modification.

Edit: Second unattended game, disc, 100 systems, everything else as default, Scylor vs George vs Laenfa vs 2xSly.
Sly were very unlucky at the start. Scylor was the best for most of the game, close to the Laenfa. Both Sly were puny the whole game in every statistic. In the end George prevailed... well, at least by turn 340, when I exited, it had more population, planets, PPs and RPs than the rest. I realise AIs are rather bad at killing each other.
I dunno if the poor performance of Sly in this game was due to bad luck or also because of competition between them for the available GGs. I won't put again two Sly in the same game.

Edit 2: two more unattended games, George vs Chato vs Sly, cluster 60 systems.
First one Sly started with two GGs in its initial solar system, that was too lucky. George did almost nothing, not even conquering a single planet for first 100 turns. Sly did extensive use of exobots and conquered natives, completely overriding its supply drawback. Chato was on par with Sly for the first 150 turns. Utter Sly domination of galaxy (yet no empire was really dead) around turn 250.
Second game gave almost opposite results. Sly did almost nothing for whole game while George was dominating the game from the start, and Chato was also very bad. By turn 200 I ended the game since George has 5x more PPs and RPs than the other two together.
Conclusions so far, the success of each species depends very much on luck and there is no obvious pattern of any species being over- or under-powered. Although all this is just anecdotal (too few games, too few different configurations, but it is so slow to run this GUI-based unattended games that I would require weeks to get sound statistics), I'm no longer concerned of a real unbalance for Sly.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:50 am 
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Space Dragon

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
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Oberlus wrote:
it is so slow to run this GUI-based unattended games that I would require weeks to get sound statistics), I'm no longer concerned of a real unbalance for Sly.

there is a command line option for advancing a given number turns without having to click anything:
Code:
./freeorion --auto-advance-n-turns

Also see the help entry for it in the top of the misc section
Code:
./freeorion --help misc



Hm doesnt really work for me..
Code:
./freeorion --setup.player.name ophiuchus --quickstart --auto-advance-n-turns 10

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:17 pm 
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Psionic Snowflake
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I'm following Geoff's advice to use multiplayer games.
Start one with you as observer and the AIs you like and turns will go on without any intervention. Statistics graphs are updated on the fly so I just open them (I usually check population, PPs, RPs and military strength), set a nice zoom of the map and go do other things, checking what's going on from time to time. Games of 3 AIs and 60 systems gets to turn 200 in a few minutes. Hmmm... I guess I could set up a big game with more AIs, let it run through the night and check results on the morning, if nothing happens to the game.
If you set yourself as moderator you can start/stop the game using the top-left toggle of auto-turn, and do a more insightful monitoring of the game.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:27 pm 
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Ophiuchus wrote:
Hm doesnt really work for me..
Code:
./freeorion --setup.player.name ophiuchus --quickstart --auto-advance-n-turns 10


Hmm, yes, auto-advance-n-turns seems to keep getting broken. I thought we had it working again a while back, but testing it just now on my Windows machine it will not work for me. Could you open a ticket on it?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:12 pm 
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Space Dragon

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
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Dilvish wrote:
Ophiuchus wrote:
Hm doesnt really work for me..
Code:
./freeorion --setup.player.name ophiuchus --quickstart --auto-advance-n-turns 10


Hmm, yes, auto-advance-n-turns seems to keep getting broken. I thought we had it working again a while back, but testing it just now on my Windows machine it will not work for me. Could you open a ticket on it?

Issue is opened

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:49 am 
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Psionic Snowflake
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Some feedback on the IS system (playing last Windows Test version, which I assume has GG size = 6):

I'm not used used to the side effect of the unlimited IS input: you'll never see again the warning icon for excess production. Now you have to worry for green numbers in the IS meter instead of a red icon next to your production meter. Annoying, at least at start, for non-IS species.


Regarding Sly and AI: in my last game, playing human against 13 AIs in 300 system cluster map, my neighbouring Sly is doing weird things: it's not colonising GGs but outposting small/tiny planets, all of them, desert, ocean, anything, not necessarily the good ones for exobots, maybe to overcome the supply lack, but its PP/RP is suffering, of course. It can afford it, I guess, because the extra population of the GGs it must have somewhere.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:02 am 
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Programming, Design, Admin
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Oberlus wrote:
I'm not used used to the side effect of the unlimited IS input: you'll never see again the warning icon for excess production.
Should probably change the warning to show up if any PP are being put into the stockpile then.
Quote:
Regarding Sly and AI: [...] my neighbouring Sly is doing weird things
The Sly AI pull request is not yet in master: https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/pull/1960


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:30 am 
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Space Dragon

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Posts: 409
So for next revision what i collected:
  • if we stick to use limits only - warn if PP get transferred to stockpile; and dont forget to consider the effects of enabling the game rule
  • revisit gas giant population issues and sly population issues
  • Watch and improve Sly AI
  • Usefulness and balancing the stockpile techs and buildings

Im still looking for feedback
  • can you misuse the stockpile with a non-stockpiling species without big effort
  • do you actually use the stockpile techs and in which situations
  • does your stockpile keep adding up but you dont use it at all? does it bother you?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:52 am 
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Psionic Snowflake
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Ophiuchus wrote:
Im still looking for feedback


  • can you misuse the stockpile with a non-stockpiling species without big effort:
    It seems to me you can't. What you can do is worry less about cutoff supply lines because what gets into the IS you'll have it back eventually, slowly. It seems IS mechanics without any tech nor stockpiling focus allows a non-stockpiling species to increase by 10% the PP investment you can make per turn (if you first put something in the IS, of couse, which is as easy as having 1 idle turn).
  • do you actually use the stockpile techs and in which situations:
    I don't. I don't like the loss of RP/PPs you get from the stockpiling focus, so I don't use it. And since the techs are aimed at that, except void prediction, I don't get them. Playing stealthy and distribuited with Sly, I can overpower the AIs with the starting stockpiling efficiency they have. So, to encourage the research and use of such techs, I would suggest to nerf the current efficiency factors (maybe to 600% for Sly and and 200% for Laenfa).
  • does your stockpile keep adding up but you dont use it at all? does it bother you?
    If playing Sly, it does not bother me, I keep filling and emptying it in cycles. If playing Laenfa I can get out what gets into it at a relatively decent speed (with some very-occasional-or-almost-inexistent stockpiling focus) so it's not a problem. With non-stockpiling species, for which I don't dare to try going distributed or stealthy, it is annoying when I miss my production queue got empty and I had put 50 PP on the IS in just one turn, and will need around 10 turns to get it out, when I would have prefered to add something else to the queue and use those PPs in the turn before. However, once I'm used to be wary about green numbers in the GUI, PPs seldom end up in the IS, and when this happens it is premeditated and serves to some (small) purpose. So the real answer is no, stockpile does not keep adding and I can spend what gets into it.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:14 pm 
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Space Dragon

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Just a short question - should we keep this as feedback thread for the current weekly build ("iteration 5") or should i split another feedback thread?
There were no changes to the stockpile mechanic, but there were (mostly sly-)relevant changes to balancing. I updated the original post to reflect the current state.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:06 pm 
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Psionic Snowflake
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I guess this thread is OK for now.

I got a bug, as for latest Test version for Windows: GGs give no supply at all, regardless of technologies or buildings.
I got Sly very bad supply (-1), Gas Giant (-1), Space Elevator (+3), Orbital construction (+1) and a max supply of +2, all this displayed in the window, yet value for the meter for this and next turn remains 0, turn after turn, so no supply range is ever provided. On the other hand, an outposted asteroid belt gives me +1 supply (from orb. cons.) the turn following the outposting. So it seems some effect is preventing the GGs to update their supply meters?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:30 pm 
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Oberlus wrote:
GGs give no supply at all, regardless of technologies or buildings.
Also regardless of whether the planet has population (with GG or the one receiving supply from it)?


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