Nerfing Trith/Xenophobics

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

Moderator: Oberlus

Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
Voker57
Space Kraken
Posts: 135
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2016 4:46 pm

Nerfing Trith/Xenophobics

#1 Post by Voker57 »

Xenophobes (especially Trith) are excellent races currently which are supposed to kept in check by their xenophobicness. However, xenophobis maluses are quite lacking...

Let's take average two planets, "xeno" is industry-targeting conquered species' homeworld in otherwise "phobe"-filled sector

Xeno maluses are: -2.80/22 I -0/28P -0/4R
So, -10% for focus, zero problems otherwise.

Phobe maluses are: -0.86/11P -0.33/18R -0.45/5I
Trith are mildly annoyed, but nothing to build concentration camps over. Empire happily coexists.

I made a patch which adjusts these bonuses to something that actually encourages xenophobic gameplay and does not allow to just ignore the maluses. Stats:

xeno: -8.40/22I -6/28P -8.40/2R
phobe: -1.30/11P -8/18R -0/5I

Not fatal but quite crippling.
Team S.M.A.C.: destroying dreams of multiplayer 4x since 2017.

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 5714
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Nerfing Trith/Xenophobics

#2 Post by Oberlus »

I like this alot. Something along this lines could be done in master?

User avatar
Geoff the Medio
Programming, Design, Admin
Posts: 13587
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:33 am
Location: Munich

Re: Nerfing Trith/Xenophobics

#3 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Oberlus wrote:I like this alot. Something along this lines could be done in master?
If there is a consensus that this is more interesting / better balanced, then sure.

Ophiuchus
Programmer
Posts: 3433
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Nerfing Trith/Xenophobics

#4 Post by Ophiuchus »

Geoff the Medio wrote:
Oberlus wrote:I like this alot. Something along this lines could be done in master?
If there is a consensus that this is more interesting / better balanced, then sure.
I think Trith are OP if not using concentration camps (cant comment on those - i dont use them). Not sure if the nerf is the appropiate one.

I guess the change would also need some AI work for trith(?)
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

User avatar
Dilvish
AI Lead and Programmer Emeritus
Posts: 4768
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:25 pm

Re: Nerfing Trith/Xenophobics

#5 Post by Dilvish »

Ophiuchus wrote:I guess the change would also need some AI work for trith(?)
The AI xenophobe handling has already been a bit weak, and this would indeed make it probably severe without some further work. So far, to my recollection, the xenophobic maluses had been both minor enough and complicated enough (when trying to make projections) that the AI currently does not take them into account when planning outpost/colony scores. These proposed maluses sound severe enough that AI's with xeno species might wind up crippled without some adjustment.

It sounds like the appropriate next step would be to put this up as a 'Work In Progress" PR while we discuss and work on AI adjustements for it.

Voker57 do you have enough experience with this patch yet to be able to formulate a corresponding colonization strategy?
If I provided any code, scripts or other content here, it's released under GPL 2.0 and CC-BY-SA 3.0

User avatar
Voker57
Space Kraken
Posts: 135
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2016 4:46 pm

Re: Nerfing Trith/Xenophobics

#6 Post by Voker57 »

Dilvish wrote: Voker57 do you have enough experience with this patch yet to be able to formulate a corresponding colonization strategy?
Not a lot of experience, I played one game as Trith and had to choose between Trith and Mu Ursh (goodbye Trith) because my empire was severely punished.
Obviously, either concamping every native, or settling in sectors with exobots only in no man land between.
Team S.M.A.C.: destroying dreams of multiplayer 4x since 2017.

User avatar
Dilvish
AI Lead and Programmer Emeritus
Posts: 4768
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:25 pm

Re: Nerfing Trith/Xenophobics

#7 Post by Dilvish »

Voker57 wrote:
Dilvish wrote: Voker57 do you have enough experience with this patch yet to be able to formulate a corresponding colonization strategy?
Not a lot of experience, I played one game as Trith and had to choose between Trith and Mu Ursh (goodbye Trith) because my empire was severely punished.
Obviously, either concamping every native, or settling in sectors with exobots only in no man land between.
Hmm, well we've started some work on more involved system-network analysis which I think would make it easier for the AI to implement a sector-by-sector approach, but that will be a while yet before that's really ready to roll out. And I am doubtful that the "concamping every native" approach would really work very well.

Can I suggest that you start out with a much smaller increase to the xeno penalties, perhaps just one-thrd or one-half of the way from existing penalties towards what you have initially proposed here? Someplace where it is not so brutal that you can only get yourself to play one game as Trith :lol: , enough to be able to formulate a working strategy for them? It's fine with me if they still wind up being slightly weaker overall even for a human player (and then would be weaker yet for the AI), but it probably should not be a brutal crippling.
If I provided any code, scripts or other content here, it's released under GPL 2.0 and CC-BY-SA 3.0

User avatar
Vezzra
Release Manager, Design
Posts: 6095
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:56 pm
Location: Sol III

Re: Nerfing Trith/Xenophobics

#8 Post by Vezzra »

I'm a bit wary if we should put too much effort into enabling the AI to handle the current xenophobic mechanics. IMO those are just a stop-gap solution until we can come up with Influence based mechanics. Which of course needs Influence implemented first. As this is currently planned for the next release cycle, we'd have to rewrite any AI xenophobic handling relatively soon anyway, so...

User avatar
Voker57
Space Kraken
Posts: 135
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2016 4:46 pm

Re: Nerfing Trith/Xenophobics

#9 Post by Voker57 »

Consensus is with proper xenophobic mechanics trith are too weak to compete. Could use a small bonus I guess, maybe +25% population
Team S.M.A.C.: destroying dreams of multiplayer 4x since 2017.

User avatar
L29Ah
Space Squid
Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2016 3:19 pm

Re: Nerfing Trith/Xenophobics

#10 Post by L29Ah »

Bump.
Team S.M.A.C.: play multiplayer with us!

Ophiuchus
Programmer
Posts: 3433
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Nerfing Trith/Xenophobics

#11 Post by Ophiuchus »

Influence is scheduled for the coming 0.5 development cycle, so properly balancing xenophobes could be part of it.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

Post Reply