Master of Orion Reboot (Wargaming)

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Geoff the Medio
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Master of Orion Reboot (Wargaming)

#1 Post by Geoff the Medio » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:57 am

After buying the Master of Orion IP after the Atari bankruptcy a few years ago, it looks like Wargaming is starting to publicize their work on a reboot of the original Master of Orion:

http://wargaming.com/en/articles/blog/master-orion/

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Re: Master of Orion Reboot (Wargaming)

#2 Post by MatGB » Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:00 pm

That looks very very pretty. I have several friends who obsess over World Of Tanks, so they do at least know how to make a good game.
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Re: Master of Orion Reboot (Wargaming)

#3 Post by The Silent One » Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:28 pm

I hope it will create some interest for freeorion as well. I'm curious how the MoO reboot will turn out, definitely looking forward to it.
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Re: Master of Orion Reboot (Wargaming)

#4 Post by MikkoM » Sat Apr 09, 2016 2:39 pm

The new Master Of Orion has been in early access phase for sometime now (as far as I know you can try it out by buying the game on Steam). It also has an active discussion forum of fellow MOO enthusiasts here:

http://forum.masteroforion.com/

Where you can provide creative feedback and ideas for the project, which hopefully the developers will take into account.

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Re: Master of Orion Reboot (Wargaming)

#5 Post by Vezzra » Sat Apr 09, 2016 5:12 pm

Oh, look who's dropping by... :D

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Re: Master of Orion Reboot (Wargaming)

#6 Post by MikkoM » Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:29 pm

Vezzra wrote:Oh, look who's dropping by... :D
I have always been here.

Well not quite, but have been visiting at least from time to time still. :)

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Re: Master of Orion Reboot (Wargaming)

#7 Post by Vezzra » Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:41 pm

MikkoM wrote:Well not quite, but have been visiting at least from time to time still. :)
Nice to see one of you stealthy lurkers resurface now and then - I sometimes wonder how many of the old veterans are still silently observing us... ;)

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Re: Master of Orion Reboot (Wargaming)

#8 Post by MikkoM » Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:17 am

One thing that I find very ironic is, for all these years the FreeOrion project has had good leadership that has carefully considered the pros and cons of game design decisions, but it has lacked the necessary funds/people`s time to reach completion. Whereas with Wargaming`s support this new Master Of Orion has very deep pockets, but seems to lack both ambition and talent on the part of its leaders. See a couple of comments by the project`s Wargaming lead Chris Keeling and you no longer wonder why that project had all the look and feel of a simplified kids mobile game when it started in Early Access. (Some people were even asking on Youtube if it was a MOO parody rather than a new MOO game.)

In all my years of gaming I have never disliked any game developer more than mr. Keeling with his ignorant, idiotic or at times even simply untrue (see his 10% tactical combat statement) statements about both Master Of Orion series and the space 4X genre in general. Even in MOO 3`s case the developers at least tried to achieve something great, but the more you read mr. Keeling`s statements the clearer it gets that all they were aiming at was to make a quick buck with a bunch of old names (MOO and the famous sci-fi voice actors). And it is no longer any wonder why this new MOO has been loosing to Stellaris even on its own forum:

http://forum.masteroforion.com/index.ph ... stellaris/

So if this new MOO ever gets to be anything more than your average space 4X game with a MOO name, it will be because of the fans demanding changes in the Early Access, and not because of its leaders visions.

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Re: Master of Orion Reboot (Wargaming)

#9 Post by Vezzra » Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:48 pm

I don't follow the development of neither Stellaris nor this new MOO, so I can't really tell anything about those games. However, what you tell sounds really awful, so that means we'll soon end up with yet another crappy game. But as long as there are enough people who buy those games and companies are able to make big money with it, they will continue throwing them at us.

I really wonder, are there so few people out there who prefer well designed, high quality games that the effort of making such games doesn't pay off? I mean, imagine what FO could be if we had only a tenth of the resources MOO CTS has... of course, an open source game wouldn't get that kind of funding...

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Re: Master of Orion Reboot (Wargaming)

#10 Post by defaultuser » Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:21 am

I don't know anything about the other games mentioned, nor that much about how the FO development proceeded over time. I know there was an earlier sort of version (of several revs) and at some point there was a major rework into the beginnings of the current form.

It's hard to say what it would take to do a similar project commercially, and do it in a fashion that would attract the interest of the participants, both developers and players. It would be interesting for those who are more intimate with FO and its history to think about whether it could have been for-profit all along.

You'd have the obvious problem that if someone is paying, then 12+ years of "alpha" wouldn't be acceptable. The constant feature churn would be a problem in that case. Normally you'd try to lock down design/architecture early in the process, so that you aren't throwing away good code (that you paid for) later, and making the balance passes and such that are a part of the development here.

Given money, could the current developers have done something similar to the current game in six months? Twelve months? Would you hire full-timers (expensive) or just some sort of freelance job lots with a relatively few architect/supervisory types? What would it cost, and what sales at a reasonable price-point would be needed?

If you still have the constant testing by the public, then you have the problem of older binaries out there to compete with your finished product. Why pay when someone is putting up the last beta version that's almost the same as the final?

I have worked in engineering for 35 years now, and software for over 20. It can be expensive. I don't know if any of you have a reasonable labor-hour figure that's gone into FO over the years, but I suspect it's staggering. If you were paying even minimum wage, what would be the numbers?

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Re: Master of Orion Reboot (Wargaming)

#11 Post by Vezzra » Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:59 am

defaultuser wrote:It's hard to say what it would take to do a similar project commercially, and do it in a fashion that would attract the interest of the participants, both developers and players.
You're right, if FO had been a commercial project, it most likely would have turned into a very different game.
It would be interesting for those who are more intimate with FO and its history to think about whether it could have been for-profit all along.
Can't imagine how that would have worked out. So probably not.

When I talked about "funding" for FO, I wasn't thinking commercial in the traditional sense, more along the lines of Dwarf Fortress. Although this isn't a commercial game, yet the two guys working on it receive enough donations from their fan base to make their living and work full time on that project.
You'd have the obvious problem that if someone is paying, then 12+ years of "alpha" wouldn't be acceptable. The constant feature churn would be a problem in that case. Normally you'd try to lock down design/architecture early in the process, so that you aren't throwing away good code (that you paid for) later, and making the balance passes and such that are a part of the development here.
And yet Dwarf Fortress works exactly that way. This project dates almost as far back as FO, is (also like FO) still in alpha and expected to take maybe another 20(!!!) years until 1.0 - and is currently going stronger than ever.

Of course, Dwarf Fortress is a very unique phenomenon, which is why I said that an open source game (which DF isn't) won't get that kind of funding.
I have worked in engineering for 35 years now, and software for over 20. It can be expensive. I don't know if any of you have a reasonable labor-hour figure that's gone into FO over the years, but I suspect it's staggering. If you were paying even minimum wage, what would be the numbers?
I think at that point you can't even guess anymore, other than your suspicion is probably more than right. The numbers are certainly far beyond anything commercially reasonable.

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Re: Master of Orion Reboot (Wargaming)

#12 Post by defaultuser » Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:34 pm

I don't know much about Dwarf Fortress, but I skimmed through the Wikipedia article. I gather it's a community-supported closed-source effort of a couple of developers.

There's nothing that would prevent you guys from trying a monetized version, although of course you'd have to be open-source still. If the main developers decided to move to a model where they updated and added features when contributions reached a sufficient level, you could do that.

That would probably cause a fork in the project, as some people out there (maybe one or more developers) would say, "FreeOrion must be FREE! We'll work our own changes!!" That's the nature of open-source.

In the past, I have been involved with a large volunteer software effort in the form of a MUD. That was (or still is) End Of The Line (EOTL). I consider going back there after I retire from the paid software, as I have some ideas that might be interesting. Unfortunately, their player numbers have dwindled significantly. I also consider you guys. Maybe both. Maybe neither, as I have some other ideas that might be better solo.

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Re: Master of Orion Reboot (Wargaming)

#13 Post by Vezzra » Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:20 am

defaultuser wrote:That would probably cause a fork in the project, as some people out there (maybe one or more developers) would say, "FreeOrion must be FREE! We'll work our own changes!!" That's the nature of open-source.
Which, given the small size of our dev team and userbase, would most likely kill the project. Not that any of the main devs wants to go down that road, at least AFAIK.
In the past, I have been involved with a large volunteer software effort in the form of a MUD. That was (or still is) End Of The Line (EOTL). I consider going back there after I retire from the paid software, as I have some ideas that might be interesting. Unfortunately, their player numbers have dwindled significantly. I also consider you guys. Maybe both. Maybe neither, as I have some other ideas that might be better solo.
Wow, lots of options. Good for you! :D

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Re: Master of Orion Reboot (Wargaming)

#14 Post by defaultuser » Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:24 pm

Vezzra wrote:Wow, lots of options. Good for you! :D
I enjoy producing software, and I have been a game aficionado my whole life. It will be fun to have some time to work on a project of my choosing.

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Re: Master of Orion Reboot (Wargaming)

#15 Post by MikkoM » Tue Aug 02, 2016 3:06 pm

Vezzra wrote: I really wonder, are there so few people out there who prefer well designed, high quality games that the effort of making such games doesn't pay off? I mean, imagine what FO could be if we had only a tenth of the resources MOO CTS has... of course, an open source game wouldn't get that kind of funding...
If you ask me, and my data might be very out of date too, but where FreeOrion would really need paid help is in the Ogre implementation of space combat and possibly diplomacy as well. Since as far as I know not much has happened there since tzlaine became less active in here.

Of course in a way I am not too impartial here as the player controlled tactical combat is really my pet feature in space 4X games, but if you take a look at the forum polls on the new MOOs forum you can probably safely say that I am not alone:

http://forum.masteroforion.com/index.ph ... al-combat/

http://forum.masteroforion.com/index.ph ... -strategy/

http://forum.masteroforion.com/index.ph ... al-combat/

There is a big community of us space combat and ship design lovers out there that despite quite a few space 4X games on the marker these days aren`t getting what we most crave for. In the historical strategy games section the Creative Assembly understood this particular market potential of having good empire management and good tactical combat in the same game and has been very succesful since then, but on the space 4X games side no one seems to be willing to do the same.

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