Public Review: Population Cap, Growth, and Migration for v.2

Past public reviews and discussions.
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mr_ed
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#16 Post by mr_ed » Tue Jul 15, 2003 3:52 pm

1) Population Cap

My heart wants to go with Impaler's, but I don't know if bio is the right word. Infrastructure is what comes to mind for me. More to follow.

Otherwise, I'll vote for Drek's simplified version.

2) Growth

Powercrazy's growth formula

3) Migration

I vote for the special extremely-costly forced migration option.

I am highly against moving large amounts of colonists
When you dump 100000 of your citizens on a new planet with an infrastructure (sewers, electricity, etc) that supports 10000, you're asking for it.
You can still do it, but there's got to be a cost associated with it.

On #1, my vote would go to Impaler's system if it had "infrastructure" instead of "bio." If we had multiple races per planet (which I don't think we should), we'd have the ability to tear down or use other races' infrastructure on that planet.

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tzlaine
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#17 Post by tzlaine » Tue Jul 15, 2003 5:11 pm

tsev wrote:I'll second Aquitaine's notion of "Evacuation" as opposed to "migration"
Me too, as I think was maybe clear from my post.

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#18 Post by krum » Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:38 am

Population cap: I like Impaler's bio or inrfrastructure, how you like it.

Growth: PowerCrazy's MoO2 style growth.

Migration: I haven't played MoO3 more that a few hours so I don't know how the system works, what does 'appeal' mean in this case? Is it a ratio of population to maximum population (or in our case maybe bio)? If it is, great. I wouldn't mind having expensive movement/evacuation only as well. I don;t see how the two are mutually exclusive though.

P.S. ONe more thing, if we later include multiple races per planet it would be easy to have different 'appeals' for different races based on the different types of bios ( :) )

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Bastian-Bux
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#19 Post by Bastian-Bux » Wed Jul 16, 2003 1:44 pm

PopCap: Impaler rules :).

Growth: again Impalers formulae (its different from PCs).

Migration: MoO3 style with tyreths distance beeing an important factor. t does matter if this colony world is close to the cultural ceter, or out in the woods. At least for the female colonists. ;)

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Aquitaine
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#20 Post by Aquitaine » Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:08 pm

So far, there is no consensus on this review. I will leave it up a while longer.

However, I have to say something about Impaler's bio proposal. It seems to be tackling some stuff the other ones don't -- things like infrastructure. Systems that provide an answer to shoving people onto a planet that can't support them. In theory, I'd be willing to consider this.

However, the proposal itself violates rather egregiously the second of my only two core rules of design. I couldn't explain that system to someone else if this were a board game. Honestly, my brain hurt before I even got to 'and now for the compliated part,' so while I appreciate a couple of things that the Bio system is trying to do, I can't quite grasp that specific implementation of it.

Please bear in mind that you don't need exact numbers when proposing a system like this. The question we're interested in is more 'do we want a formula for growth or a static growth rate,' and 'do we want static population caps or some more complex system.' Where you take the cube root of something in a particular system does not need to be an element of this review.

I would not violate the rule of 'don't pass anything that could not be explained as though you were playing a board game' without good reason, and I don't see good reason here. Yes, we have the computer to do the work for us, but if it -requires- a computer to really get the system, I'm not going to be on board.

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Bastian-Bux
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#21 Post by Bastian-Bux » Thu Jul 17, 2003 8:54 am

Honestly I was all the time searching for the difficult part of Impalers system. Its a very straightforward and nicely logical system. Yes, its harder then severall other systems, but its still understandable´I think. Even without a computer.

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#22 Post by krum » Thu Jul 17, 2003 9:06 am

Well, the math is no more complicated than the growth formula. It doesn't even include division, I mean, just to think I once proposed a formula that involved a natural logarithm... :D My point being, I dunno, I doesn't work like a baord game, but it seems straightforward enough, and the math behind it isn't a problem for anyone.

P.S. hm, seems me and bastian posted pretty similar posts on two different thread at the same time, we are not the same person, don't worry. :)

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Impaler
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Bio "Its whats for Dinner"

#23 Post by Impaler » Thu Jul 17, 2003 9:18 am

So far we have come to a Consensus on 1 major thing, mainly the "moving my population around every turn to accive maximum growth is a pain the the ass" people differ on the solution, either make it illegal, automate it or remove the insentive to do it by making you pay through the nose for it.

Having noticed that this is a big issue let me expalin how my Bio proposal is the 4th way. Under the slowly growing population cap of Biosphere the insentive to migrate is greatly reduced even under a system of expedential population growth. Under most expodential growth systems their is a strong insentive to move my population from a high pop/full capacity world to new empty worlds. The emptness of the new planet will cause the migrants to boom and I repeat again and again. But with a flexible capacity that starts small the new planet will be almost as full (if not more) then the departing planet and thus their is no big imediate growth advantage to migration. As the capacity of the planet incresses so too can the population in tandum without major migration. Infact the "rabbit" races would have a reduced need for population transporting as the original colonist would easily fill the planet without additional migrants.

Their are some conserns over the complexity of the Bio proposal though so let me focus on the core parts of the idea and cut off the parts that "couldn't be a board game". Just forget all the stuff that comes after "NOW THE COMPLICATED PART" as this material was kind of an additional layer that aplies only to situations of multiple races on a single planet and can be ignored for now.

1 The population cap of an untouched planet is zero (possible exceptions for Gaia planets), a colony ship establishes 1 unit of population and 1 unit of Biosphere on a planet (so the new colony is basicaly "full")

2 The Bio quantity incresses at some predictable rate that is dependent on the races Environmental Preference for the planet and independent of the planets size. If the Wheel is a definate go then it might go with a simple +1 Bio each turn for each tick closer to optimal the planet is on the wheel, so Terran would be +4, Swamp +3 ect ect. Perhaps some of Drek or NightFishes models would work well as the Bio calculation mechanism. As long as it depends on Environmental Preference it will be good, it might not even me nessary to take current Bio into account though I would recomend that.

3 The maximum Bio is equal to the planets size number multiplied by the Environment Preference factor of the planet. Thus the EP determines the ultimate final population capacity.

4 A concouring alien race dose not benifit from another races Bio, it must eliminate it and begin from scratch with its own. (Think of this as "assimilation" of the concoured territory, even though you genocided the entire population). The earlier multiple Bios on the same planet should probably be droped as its very hard to calculate or predict. Most likly the new race must perform some action (Global Sterilization?) that returns the planet to a clean slate (buildings/infastructe reamian intact though)

5 Optional, their would be a Focus option "Cultivate Biosphere" that excelerates the growth of your Bio by some formula of Money x EcolonyTec = Extra Bio

Those are basicaly the core principals, I think they will do a lot to stamp out the root causes of Snow-balling and tedious migration while at the same time simply and efficiently incorporating the Environmental Prefereces desided upon earlier and dose so by adding only 1 additonal "critical number" to a planet.


P.S. In response to Mr. Ed mentioning Infastructure. Bio could be though of as "farms" when we are talking about Human Biosphere but I have always seen it as being closser the "carrying capacity" of the planet something traditonaly seen as unchangable and definatly not "built". Bio is a representation of all Biological support mechanisms thus it can expand automaticaly without using up the "industrial output" of the player. Infastructure would be the oposite side of the coin. It would ONLY be produced by industry so I think it should fall under the genreal catagory of "buildings". Perhaps we can consider some "Habitation Complex" like that of SMAC/Civ games that effect population capacity.
Last edited by Impaler on Thu Jul 17, 2003 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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drekmonger
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#24 Post by drekmonger » Thu Jul 17, 2003 9:26 am

As a compromise how about this: we make the initial static caps somewhat lower than they are now. The caps can then be improved in v.3 via certain facilities. You'd still have industry being spent to improve the cap, but instead of a separate system it would be folded into whatever building model we dream up for v.3.

Further, we might make these facilities only valid for the race that built them. So when you conquer a planet you might get the shipyard, but the Bio "buildings" (or whatever) are useless unless you allow the original race to continue living on that world. (and unlike other buildings, it would be costly the scrap Bio, maybe even a project in it's own right)

In other words, static caps (either NFs or my numbers) for v.2--and revisit the populaiton cap issue in v.3.

EDIT: Just to be clear, the bio "buildings" I'm thinking of would improve automatically with time, just as Impaler's Bio does. The cost of the buildings and the rate at which they improve might also be keyed to the EP of the planet. The max effect of the buildings based on the size of the world, as well as the other Bio buildings on the planet. So if there's a Native bio "building" taking up a slot, you'd have to scrap it in order to get the full effect from your own bio building :twisted:

Essentially, it would be Bio in a box.

Anyway, that would all be decided and specified in v.3.

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#25 Post by Impaler » Thu Jul 17, 2003 9:48 am

Also I would like to repost that population equation, as many people mentioned it had some flaws, I belive I have it fixed. (I changed the first plus, it was previously minus).

{1+[(Current Bio)-(Current Stress)] / (Current Bio) } x Racial Growth Factor = Population Multiplier

A result greater then 1 will raise your population and one less then 1 will lower it.


In response to Drek, the problem with that is that its illogical for something called "Infastructure" to expand automaticaly and without any resorses being devoted too it as I stated earlier. The original name Biosphere is the best way to describe it. I am not oposed to having something called "infastructe" in the game but I see it serving a different purpose and being produced in a totaly different way. Also we arn't going to come this far on the discussion only to deside to bumb the issue to v0.3, that would be so anti-climactic 8)
Last edited by Impaler on Thu Jul 17, 2003 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Nightfish
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#26 Post by Nightfish » Thu Jul 17, 2003 9:50 am

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by revisting the pop cap in V0.3. Why would we bother deciding something now only to take it apart later on? As far as I remember our policy, when something is decided, it is decided unless a very good reason comes up.

If we're going to start revisiting each and every decision for each new version I'm not sure that's something I'd be happy with. And by revisiting I don't mean making sure that everything is still balanced and working, by that I mean making major changes, the way you now suggest.

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#27 Post by drekmonger » Thu Jul 17, 2003 10:21 am

Impaler, NF:

What I'm saying is that we have static cap in v.2, and allow facilities to improve that cap in v.3 (I was already under the impression that planet specials, technologies, and facilities might be allowed to improve the "static" caps).

We leave it open for v.3 to include a "BioSphere" facility that duplicates the functionality of Impaler's Bio model. That doesn't mean it's in the game or out of the game--just that the concept can be revisited when we start to worry about buildings.

Personally, I just like chunking things together--rather than having 50 different little systems, we have a hierarchy that encompasses each idea.

"Planet buildings" are in my mind the same thing as "planet specials". Except for certain key attributes (enviroment, size, location, population) I'd like to throw as many of the little planet modifiers (like gravity, mineral richness, facilties, and perhaps bio) into the same pot. The basic idea is: if it modifies a planet's key attributes, then it's a facility/special.

imho, this will make the game easier to design, code, comprehend and mod.

(on that note I think it's time for me to detail a planet attribute object. I think the programmers will like it, if no one else)

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#28 Post by Bastian-Bux » Thu Jul 17, 2003 12:10 pm

Suggestion:

A colony ship transports colonists, a closed enviroment able to support those colonists and enough material ressources for a starting colony. Depending on the Planet type this represents a very tight popcap. How many people can live in a dome on the Mars?

Now the colonists can build two important buildings: Infrastructure and Biosphere. Both together are the two coins of Impalers coin. The Biosphere building will over time increase the popcap of the colony, while the infrastructure will increase the industrial capacity. The closer a planet towards gaia, the faster the biosphere building works. The richer a planet mineralwise, the faster the infrastructure building works.

Both values are growing towards Maxima, dependend on size, fertility/minerals of the planet AND the level of the biosphere/infrastructure technology as well as invested energy/money.

Terraforming would then only be a highly developed biosphere building.

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Aquitaine
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#29 Post by Aquitaine » Thu Jul 17, 2003 1:13 pm

A couple notes.

Firstly, we cannot consider new proposals in a public review thread. If the time comes to make a call and everybody is unhappy with what's here, we'll restart the process with the DESIGN: thread.

Regarding the Bio proposal: it seems founded on a couple principles that perhaps shouldn't be guiding this decision.

The first is the idea that you can move colonists from one place to another whenever you want (the system is designed to keep this from happening). This is a good solution, but it's solving a problem we aren't going to have; we -do- have consensus on migration, so it looks as if you cannot ever just move colonists because you feel like it.

The second is the idea that a planet can support multiple races. This has not been decided, but it's certain that, at least for several more versions, it will not be the case (since we won't have races until v.8, I think).

The bio system deals with both of these issues aptly, but I'm not looking to solve either of them at the moment.

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#30 Post by PowerCrazy » Fri Jul 18, 2003 11:30 am

The bio system deals with both of these issues aptly, but I'm not looking to solve either of them at the moment.
HAHA. Perhaps its becuase its VERY late(early) or perhaps its because i have a strange sense of humor. But i found that comment pretty funny.

However you DO have a point aquitaine. I assume that the consensus is no colonists shuffling except perhaps in a rare emergency such that you would actually start an industrial project to evacuate your planet. If i'm at least partially right then yes the Bio thing is unnecessary. However it can easilly be adapted for terraforming or something similiar. I'm going to assume that we will have a way to turn almost anyplanet into some kind of paradise. Thus impalers bio system seems pretty intuitive.

However as far as a popcap is concerned it should be based on planet size and the EP of your race compared to that of the planet. No need to get anymore complicated than that.
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