DESIGN: Stockpiles

Past public reviews and discussions.
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Sidewalker
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#46 Post by Sidewalker » Fri Jul 18, 2003 7:48 am

I would like to see "strategic" resources a la Civ3 in game. It was really cool idea... Make sense for trade.
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PowerCrazy
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#47 Post by PowerCrazy » Fri Jul 18, 2003 11:04 am

I want the end-all tech to be called "The Magic Box." But definetly at the beginning stockpiles should be limited. However as tech advances and perhaps the bigger a planet is. . . [tangent] How about an innate bonus to mineral storage/collection just because its a bigger planet?[/tangent] the bigger the stockpiles should be. Maybe not to the point of infinite, but close to it. As far as trading minerals or any other resource for tech or what have you: I'm all for it. Just don't make me have an innately unfavorable income balance such that i am FORCED to trade (I think civ3 did that.)
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The Silent One
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#48 Post by The Silent One » Fri Jul 18, 2003 1:26 pm

In my opinion one should also be able to store research, because until a research project is finished, the research data could be kept on local computers before they are merged with the global project. Thus, an invader could get his hands on these data after conquering the planet.

(I see that doesn't make sense to trade research points, though.)

elfstone
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#49 Post by elfstone » Fri Jul 18, 2003 2:26 pm

Storing part of a research doesnt make sense, imho. If somebody conquers a planet, he can steal food and minerals, but he shouldnt be able to steal ideas (aka halffinished researchprojects).
Maybe he could steal finished technologies that are applied on that planet, but not the tech the conquered player is working on, and neither an amount of researchpoints.

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Aquitaine
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#50 Post by Aquitaine » Fri Jul 18, 2003 3:04 pm

This thread is not about stockpiling research, or matter converters, or anything other than what Drek originally posted about. Discussions on this board are much more heavily moderated than other boards, so keep on topic or Nightfish will eat you (and I will eat your posts).

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Impaler
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#51 Post by Impaler » Sat Jul 19, 2003 4:42 am

I like the all locals (not being blockaded) = global idea. To handel inter racial commerce (say 500 Grobnos for 50 Troblors and 4 Nfrplws). The first guy select one or more planets that have Grobnos on them and selects how many are contributed by each planet untill he gets adsactly 500 total. Then he chosses which of his planets are going to recive goods and in what quantities. The other person dose the same thing in reverse ofcorse. Then the game makes an ETA based on the distance between the farthest planets in the trade and the average of the engine speeds of the races. On this turn all the planets in question recive the apropriate products, at any point before the ETA either party can cancel the trade or space pirates can try to steal it. :twisted:
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Bastian-Bux
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#52 Post by Bastian-Bux » Sat Jul 19, 2003 6:47 am

To difficult Impaler. KISS.

I think we can do it like this:

nutritions:

GNS = global nutrition stockpile
GNR = global nutrition reduction
GNP = global nutrition production

LNS = local nutrition stockpile
LNR = local nutrition reduction
LNP = local nutrition production

LNS = GNS * (LNR + LNP) / (GNR + GNP)

So what does it say in plain english?

Well, it says that the local stockpile is equivalent to the percentage of the sum of local food use AND production.

An example:

Planet A produces 10 N and uses 2 N. (farm planet)
Planet B produces 1 N and uses 5 N. (industry planet)
GNS is 60

LNS(A) = 60 * (2 + 10) / (7 + 11) = 40
LNS(B) = 60 * (5 + 1) / (7 + 11) = 20

So what is the result? The farm planet has large amounts of food stored, as it is producing them, while the industry planet has less. This formula only needs to be used in case of a barricade, otherwise we have only a global stockpile. Just in case of a barricade the LNS of the barricaded planet is subtracted from the GNS.

For trade, its always subtracted from the GNS.

IMHO this takes a lot of the variables into account without becoming to difficult.

Btw, minerals would be equivalent, just replace all N (nutrition) with an M(minerals).

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Nightfish
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#53 Post by Nightfish » Sat Jul 19, 2003 7:09 am

Re BB's formula: If it were your empire, would you really stock more food on a planet that produces food? Wouldn't it make more sense to store more food on a planet dependant on food brought from off-world? What possible use could the first plant have for it's stockpile? Unless you change that planet's classification it's never going to have a shortage.

I don't see why we need any of these complicated approaches for this issue. It's such a terribly minor thing that will only take effect under very special circumstances that the most simple set of rules would work just nicely. (imho)

For me, that would mean no local stockpiles per se, only a global one. In case of a blockade the planet may continue to drain that stockpile for a certain amount of time. The time is determined by the size of the stockpile in relation to the empire's population. Or to put it simpler: All local stockpiles store food for an identical number of turns.

I really don't see why we would need to have local stockpiles as separate entities. Having them and not shoving them to the player is no solution. That would be just like MoO3's dev team crippling the interface on purpose so that people would let the AI handle stuff. The player needs to have access to all information concerning his empire. And let's face it, if the info is there and there is some marginal advantage to be gained by knowing about it, some people will feel forced to stay on top of things. It's just like the shuffling of colonists to keep planets at optimum growth: It's monotonous and boring but if it gains you something you'll have to do it.

drekmonger
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#54 Post by drekmonger » Sat Jul 19, 2003 7:38 am

I tend to think of things in a simulationist object orientated approach. In my mind (hidden) local stockpiles are no more complicated that a special case forumla and are a little cleaner to deal with.

Actually a lot cleaner if the code ends up looking something like what's steaming through my head.

But either method will ultimately work.

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Nightfish
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#55 Post by Nightfish » Sat Jul 19, 2003 8:48 am

Well, I'm thinking about the player first and our programmers second. Not that I like to make their work harder but I think it's preferable to have the code a little more complicated than have our game a little harder to understand. And I'd find it annoying to see one colony mysteriously starving after 1 turn of blockade while the other one shrugs off a prolonged siege with no apparant trouble.

Also, it does not make sense to have individual stockpiles vary in size the way it was proposed. If any stockpiles are larger than average it would be those close to an enemies border. And if we're going to have these varying sizes it's frustrating for the player if he can't affect that.

So I think it's best to drop local piles and leave it with one global pile.

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Bastian-Bux
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#56 Post by Bastian-Bux » Sat Jul 19, 2003 9:40 am

I wouldn't stock more food on food producing planets. Its just a matter of fact, that food producing planets will have larger stocks.

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Nightfish
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#57 Post by Nightfish » Sat Jul 19, 2003 1:02 pm

Bastian-Bux wrote:Its just a matter of fact, that food producing planets will have larger stocks.
Why?

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Aquitaine
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#58 Post by Aquitaine » Sat Jul 19, 2003 4:17 pm

I think BB's system is quite simple, actually. Just 'cause it has variables in it doesn't mean it's too scary. :)

But I don't think the issue of 'does a farm planet store more food than a shopping mall planet' is an especially important one.
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a_card
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local stockpiles

#59 Post by a_card » Sat Jul 19, 2003 5:01 pm

If blockading and capture is a valid issue, it seems (IMO) that local stockpiles will be an issue at some time anyways.
Why not keep a form of local stockpile, with keep a galactic sum for overview? I think it would simplify the creation somewhat. (my personal preference)
IF you want to go to a galactic stockpile, it would probably be easier to put either a flat rate or percentile penalty on the planet. Placing local stockpiles could get messy in a full scale galactic war.

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Bastian-Bux
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#60 Post by Bastian-Bux » Sat Jul 19, 2003 7:01 pm

The reason why farm planets will have llarger stockpiles? Cause they do produce, so they have a starting advantage. AND food is cheaper there, so easier to have larger stockpiles. Its not out of logical decisions, but out of pragmatic situativ reasons.

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