Building Queue Proposal
A Central Imperial 'Master Queue' that allocates all of the 5 resources to Projects which have a certain resource cost and a maximum resource investment per turn. (This is primarily to handle multi resource projects)
The Master Queue is best accessed by 5 Sub queues, one for each resource that contain a list of all the projects used by that resource in the same order they are in in the master queue. (Moving or Adding of objects into a Sub Queue is duplicated in the master queue)
The way resources are 'processed' is they are pooled and then each project in the queue is considered and if there are still the resources that it requires made available, then the resources are added to that projects total investment up to the maximum per turn investment.
The bottom project on any Queue is some type of a sink, something semi-useful that excess resources can do, either stockpile, or convert to a stockpilable resource or something that has an unlimited maximum investment.
Projects listed in the Queue UI can actually be (in a game sense) massive lists of Projects
So
[Terraform] at [All Worlds]
Would be what the player would see, and enter, but in Game Terms, it would be
[Terraform] at [Planet 1]
[Terraform] at [Planet 2]
etc.
And
[Infrastructure] at [Capital]
Would be what the player would see, and enter, but in Game Terms, it would be
[Infrastructure levels up to 10% Target] at [Capital]
[Infrastructure levels up to 30% Target] at [Capital]
[Infrastructure levels up to 60% Target] at [Capital]
[Infrastructure levels up to Target] at [Capital]
This allowing the ability to concentrate Development funds in less developed Levels of Infrastructure.
You would NOT be able to target a particular Type of Economic infrastructure because that is controlled from Focus.
Some projects (Technologies, spies, etc.) wouldn't have a Location
Some would produce Repeat projects which would either continue indefinitely as long as production was maintained(build [rpeat][Mark I ship] at [Capital]) or until they reached some type of maximum [Infrastructure] at [Capital].
If they reached some type of Maximum they would still remain there, but probably greyed out in some way to indicate current inactivity.. since a tech breakthrough or population increase might be made and Capital might now be able to invest more in Infrastructure.
[Maintenance] type projects would always be farther up the queue than the corresponding [Construction] project (how much farther would be for the player to change if they wished if the [Maintenance] is not listed then it is assumed to be part of the [Construction] Project with [Maintenance] getting resources first)
Most of them would by default be top priorities (as feeding people and keeping your existing fleets around is useful).
The biggest advantage I think this proposal has is it's an
Imperial Level (reduces Micromanagement)
Queue (the most efficient way to get multiple things done if their required resources are interchangable) ie get one done midway through, the rest done later.
To account for Planetary level queues, they should also be a way of accessing the Main queue. (ie a planeary queue shows all the projects that apply to that planet and subtracting, adding, or moving them there subtracts, adds, or moves the projects in the master queue.) In the same way as the 5 'Resource specific queues'.
With regards to a Master Imperial Build Queue applied to individual planets requiring programming language UI... if we have any more than ~20 planets, we are going to need a 'programming language method' for management to prevent it being either mind numbing Micro or stupid unengaging Auto. The key is to keep the programming language simple.. and that can be done by having a fairly simple list of things to spend resources on.
Terraforming
Infrastructures
Defense
Buildings (ie special)
Spies+InterEmpire actions
Technologies
'Happiness', politics/Social change
Ships
Some of these would be Empire wide (Techs, Social Change, Spies) or limited to a very few specific worlds (Ships, special Buildings). Others would be done on a wide variety of worlds of a particular class, (Terraforming, Infrastructures, Defense, possibly 'Happiness' spending) For those, we Need some type of a 'programming type language'. The key is making the gameplay decision relatively simple in those matters. The alternative is to make the gameplay decision so simple ie MOO2 autofactories that you might as well eliminate it.
For those a few key gameplay decisions that I think should definitely be preserved Ie things the player should choose to be able to vary.
1. Rates of Infrastructure development based on current 'level of development' and Focus.
2. Levels of defense based on strategic position and economic value
Ones that would be nice to preserve player choice, but would seem to be mostly automatable
1. Rate of Terraforming based on population and Environment
2. Amount of local 'Happpiness' spending based on 'sociopolitical' situation
DESIGN: Buildings / Build Queues / Infrastructure
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Krikkitone
- Creative Contributor
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Last edited by Krikkitone on Tue May 11, 2004 8:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I think the familiar local build queues, with the possibility to issue macro commands, would have the same micromanagement-reducing effect.
So instad of your "[Terraform] at [All Worlds]" in empire build queue, which would be somewhat intransparent to the user, we could use the same commands like e.g. "[Terraform] at [All Worlds]", but which would simply insert terraforming into the build queue on all planets, if applicable. Any refinements in your method, like specifying priority by putting projects on top or bottom of queue could apply too.
I still think that improving a familiar and well established concept like planetary queues is less risky than using an unfamiliar concept like an empire queue.
So instad of your "[Terraform] at [All Worlds]" in empire build queue, which would be somewhat intransparent to the user, we could use the same commands like e.g. "[Terraform] at [All Worlds]", but which would simply insert terraforming into the build queue on all planets, if applicable. Any refinements in your method, like specifying priority by putting projects on top or bottom of queue could apply too.
I still think that improving a familiar and well established concept like planetary queues is less risky than using an unfamiliar concept like an empire queue.
Extensive discussions on queues probably falls outside the scope of this thread. With that in mind, a couple of thoughts:
* A build queue with conditional commands sounds too much like a programming language. The list of conditions would have to be quite large fot it to be useful. Breaks KISS, imho--it would be hard to explain to the typical 4th grader.
* There is precedent for the global queue. Command and Conquer and our own Research queue being two examples.
Concerning number of build slots, I'd like to avoid basing the number of slots available on variables that tend to change frequently. For example, if build slots is based on population, what happens to pre-existing buildings when the population dips below the required level? Are buildings destroyed or turned off? Which building is affected first? Can the player switch population to a different building?
These questions can be neatly avoided via basing build slots on a variable that doesn't change over the course of the game: such as planet size.
To Aq:
PC's Infrastructure would handle the focus specific buildings that are razed when the player changes focus. The gameplay effect is nearly identical to building a bunch of farming buildings on a farm world, then destroying them when switching focus away from farming. An automatically increasing infrastructure just leaves out all the extra clicks.
* A build queue with conditional commands sounds too much like a programming language. The list of conditions would have to be quite large fot it to be useful. Breaks KISS, imho--it would be hard to explain to the typical 4th grader.
* There is precedent for the global queue. Command and Conquer and our own Research queue being two examples.
Concerning number of build slots, I'd like to avoid basing the number of slots available on variables that tend to change frequently. For example, if build slots is based on population, what happens to pre-existing buildings when the population dips below the required level? Are buildings destroyed or turned off? Which building is affected first? Can the player switch population to a different building?
These questions can be neatly avoided via basing build slots on a variable that doesn't change over the course of the game: such as planet size.
To Aq:
PC's Infrastructure would handle the focus specific buildings that are razed when the player changes focus. The gameplay effect is nearly identical to building a bunch of farming buildings on a farm world, then destroying them when switching focus away from farming. An automatically increasing infrastructure just leaves out all the extra clicks.
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guiguibaah
- Creative Contributor
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Building Slot option
This option was brought up in a "moons" discussion in the brainstorming forum.
Depending on the size of the planet (or population), you have certain slots to fit special planet buildings on. The blue ones are General, the yellow ones are military.
The ones on the left belong to the planet. The ones on the right belong to the moon (when a colony is constructed)
So you could drag and drop little icons of your best-researched building into them. Icons such as a hydroponic farm, a robotic factory, a stargate or planetary wonder. Military icons could be a planetary shield, missile base, etc. You also could have a special icon that allows both (military and regular).
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Advantages
= Makes planets more custom based. You don't just start up your regular "build all the required buildings" cue you do in all the CIV's, MOO2, or SMAC.
= You could produce these 'icons' on an empire basis, then when you colonise a planet, just drag and click them into place. Of course, you'd have to give a few turns for them to become active.
= You could also have this overtop specific buildings - ie planet only improvements like terraforming, moon colonising, or building some more generic building.
Disadvantages
= the design would have to be clever enough so that once you hit many, many planets, you could easily access them.
= You may have to make some tricky choices on what to put where, which could cause problems if you intend to shift your whole empire strategy.
Depending on the size of the planet (or population), you have certain slots to fit special planet buildings on. The blue ones are General, the yellow ones are military.
The ones on the left belong to the planet. The ones on the right belong to the moon (when a colony is constructed)
So you could drag and drop little icons of your best-researched building into them. Icons such as a hydroponic farm, a robotic factory, a stargate or planetary wonder. Military icons could be a planetary shield, missile base, etc. You also could have a special icon that allows both (military and regular).
- - -
Advantages
= Makes planets more custom based. You don't just start up your regular "build all the required buildings" cue you do in all the CIV's, MOO2, or SMAC.
= You could produce these 'icons' on an empire basis, then when you colonise a planet, just drag and click them into place. Of course, you'd have to give a few turns for them to become active.
= You could also have this overtop specific buildings - ie planet only improvements like terraforming, moon colonising, or building some more generic building.
Disadvantages
= the design would have to be clever enough so that once you hit many, many planets, you could easily access them.
= You may have to make some tricky choices on what to put where, which could cause problems if you intend to shift your whole empire strategy.
There are three kinds of people in this world - those who can count, and those who can't.
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PowerCrazy
- Creative Contributor
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we are fairly certain we aren't going to be managing each planet individually. The few things that we do build will be rare, and only a few planets will have them.
Things like wonders, shipyards, and perhaps defense. I want the planet to autobuild based on its focus. Buildings will exist but the player will not need to build them.
This will reduce management of a planet and leave the player to focus on more important things, like research, fleet building, diplo, etc.
Things like wonders, shipyards, and perhaps defense. I want the planet to autobuild based on its focus. Buildings will exist but the player will not need to build them.
This will reduce management of a planet and leave the player to focus on more important things, like research, fleet building, diplo, etc.
Aquitaine is my Hero.... 
Certain planet specials (such as "Habital Moon" and "Homeworld") probably should increase the number of build slots on a planet.
I see no reason to seperate these extra slots on the interface...a little label and picture indicating the orgin of the extra slot is more than enough.
I'd rather not have slots specifically set aside for defensive structures. Half the idea of limiting the number of build slots is to force the player into making a decision: should Planet X be a fortress brimming with defenses, an economic powerhouse, or something in-between?
I see no reason to seperate these extra slots on the interface...a little label and picture indicating the orgin of the extra slot is more than enough.
I'd rather not have slots specifically set aside for defensive structures. Half the idea of limiting the number of build slots is to force the player into making a decision: should Planet X be a fortress brimming with defenses, an economic powerhouse, or something in-between?
Given the scale that we want the building slots to operate on, i.e. pretty darn special buildings only, I personally think we will need to do something else/different for defences. This is because I can't see players being too happy wiith being faced with a decision between using one of a very limited number of slots for the equivalent of Moo2's Missile bases or for a galaxy affecting wonder...drek wrote:I'd rather not have slots specifically set aside for defensive structures. Half the idea of limiting the number of build slots is to force the player into making a decision: should Planet X be a fortress brimming with defenses, an economic powerhouse, or something in-between?
Given the philosophy behind the idea of limited build slots (that anything most player would tend to build at a large fraction of planets should be abstracted out because it's boring...) could I float a suggestion?
I'd propose that defences of the kind that are equivalent to Moo2/3's missile base, beam base, planetary shield etc. should be abstracted out into a single "Planetary Defences" number. The presence of each kind of defence or not at a planet should be determined merely by whether you've discovered that tech or not. The effectiveness of the defences would be determined by a planet's Defences number, with the discovery of new and improved planetary defences techs simply increasing the maximum value of this number.
In addition to this there are two other, independant options:
1) Orbital defence stations - IF we want them (Personally I think they'd make nice eye candy for the combat screen, but heh) these could either A) be built and designed like ships, but fixed in location at specific planets (placement method a separate issue discussed in the build queue thread) - i.e. the Moo3 method. Or B) they could also be abstracted out, based on the planetary defences number (i.e something like you get one orbital station per 100 units of defences etc..), possibly with a limited number of standard designs based on discovering appropriate techs.
2) Super dooper defences buildings - Would we want defensive buildings (i.e. ones that use the normal building slots) as well?
I would think these should be buildings with effects on the large scale comparable with the effects of the other buildings we were thinking of, examples might be: System warp interdictors (block movement in or out of system for enemy ships); incredibly powerful scanner arrays (detect all ship movements (even cloaked?) several jumps away); planetary lightning field generators - any enemy within a huge chunk of the combat screen gets really toasted; planetary level cloaking devices (hide the planet!); Extraordinarily strong planet shields (i.e. 10 or more times the usual maximum), etc.
(Obviously, I'm also in favour of this option. Although I can see it would be nice to be able to build these everywhere, presumably they'd have a very high cost which would prevent you anyway. Also under the slots system, the effects are on a par with the special buildings you'd be giving up, so I think the choice would feel sensible to players)
I also think that the ordinary planet defence structures shoundn't eat up planet build slots (if we will have them). Those structures are missle base / fighter base / planetary shield / beam defence.
Btw. I think we should limit the numer of (missle-) bases. For instance in moo you could build as many as you like (efford). This way some systems are way to heavyly armed just by bases.
Btw. I think we should limit the numer of (missle-) bases. For instance in moo you could build as many as you like (efford). This way some systems are way to heavyly armed just by bases.
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Satyagraha
- Space Kraken
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i´d suggest that each colony automaticly comes with defenses (called "natural defences" in warcraft 3). The effeciency of these defenses increases if the player researches appropriate techs (less numbers this way). In addition, the player can build special defenses that are more powerful, but work like Rock-Paper-Scissors and use slots.
Last edited by Satyagraha on Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
My idea is that the maximum effectiveness of your defences would be limited by your tech levels, i.e. if you've got tech level 4 defences you can only build up to 400 points of defence, if you've got tech 6 you can get up to 600 on each planet, This would have the same effect as limited numbers of bases (in fact if you rescale to smaller numbers, you could simply view the number as a number of bases.)noelte wrote: Btw. I think we should limit the numer of (missle-) bases. For instance in moo you could build as many as you like (efford). This way some systems are way to heavyly armed just by bases.
The real differnce would be that there would be no buidling of individual beam/missile etc. defence bases, just an investment in 'Defence', and what you get in combat would be a base that fired x missiles per round if you had missile bases, y beams per round if you had researched beam bases etc. where the numbers are based on the level of the planet's 'Defence' level.
re: Satyagraha post directly above
Sounds about right to me. Each world would automatically have some defenses. Strength of these defenses would be based on the colony's infrastructure, racial bonuses/penalties, and most importantly technology.
Anything beyond that bare minimium would require that the player burn a build slot.
If more control is desired over the amount of defenses a planet builds, there could be a Defense focus.
Sounds about right to me. Each world would automatically have some defenses. Strength of these defenses would be based on the colony's infrastructure, racial bonuses/penalties, and most importantly technology.
Anything beyond that bare minimium would require that the player burn a build slot.
If more control is desired over the amount of defenses a planet builds, there could be a Defense focus.
I just don't like the idea of being forced to use one or more of three build slots or two foci just to lift a planet from minimal defence to medium defence.drek wrote:re: Satyagraha post directly above
Sounds about right to me. Each world would automatically have some defenses. Strength of these defenses would be based on the colony's infrastructure, racial bonuses/penalties, and most importantly technology.
Anything beyond that bare minimium would require that the player burn a build slot.
If more control is desired over the amount of defenses a planet builds, there could be a Defense focus.
I suppose I'd like as a minimum some method that let's me classify planets as either minimal,low,medium,high or fortress defences, and I'd really only be willing to (loose a slot/spend the effort choosing specific defences) for fortress worlds. So maybe just a combo box for defence level, with higher defence levels costing more in upkeep?
FO's already got Aq's focus system, and presumably buildings on the way.
I don't like the idea of special casing defenses--adding a third system to the mix. I'm betting there's an elegant way to shoehorn an ample amount of control over defenses using planet slots and/or foci.
It could be that three build slots is too few.
EDIT:
Come to think of it.....
minimal: Primary and secondary focus not set to defense
low: Secondary focus to defense
medium: Primary focus to defense
high: Primary and secondary focus set to defense
fortress: Primary and secondary focus set to defense, build slots used to build special defensive structures
Besides, an empire's primary defenses should be it's ships, no? I've played moo-ish games that have no ground defenses--the only military units are starships.
I don't like the idea of special casing defenses--adding a third system to the mix. I'm betting there's an elegant way to shoehorn an ample amount of control over defenses using planet slots and/or foci.
It could be that three build slots is too few.
EDIT:
Come to think of it.....
minimal: Primary and secondary focus not set to defense
low: Secondary focus to defense
medium: Primary focus to defense
high: Primary and secondary focus set to defense
fortress: Primary and secondary focus set to defense, build slots used to build special defensive structures
Besides, an empire's primary defenses should be it's ships, no? I've played moo-ish games that have no ground defenses--the only military units are starships.
Hmm, defence is no focus and shouldn't be one. I would use some defence installations which doesn't use slots (limited by techlevel and ...). I hope we will have some sort of star bases which could be build like ships. Which might open the question how systems without a shipyard get those star bases.