spatial flux sketch

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Ophiuchus
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spatial flux sketch

#1 Post by Ophiuchus »

Sketch for balance pass on spatial flux tech, making the spatial flux line a mini hull line in its own right.
  • make spatial flux bubble a bit smaller again (less structure, less PP cost) - maybe 14PP and 140 structure
  • tech tree changes: move spatial flux tech out of robotic line; also add a flux core tech which has both the spatial flux and the flux bubble techs as prerequisites
  • new spatial flux composites tech: mastery of spatial flux theory allows to combine flux bubbles and spatial flux hulls into complex composite machines, unlocks composite spatial flux hull
  • spatial flux tech: also unlock spatial flux lance ship part, maybe only 20PP
  • new spatial flux lance ship part: close range weapon (targets nothing in bout 1, targets fighters in bout 2, targets fighters and ships in bouts 3 and 4), mounts in internal slot, not more than 1 per ship, cheap (e.g.4PP), power level at MD3 (4*5dam*6/20PP, e.g. 2*2dam*6/4PP),
  • new composite spatial flux core hull: one core slot and one external slot, kind of expensive hull, but good structure (added an internal slot on behalf of oberlus)
Last edited by Ophiuchus on Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

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Re: spatial flux sketch

#2 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:11 pm new composite spatial flux core hull: one core slot and one external slot, kind of expensive hull, but good structure
Isn't that the same as transspatial hull?
Edit: well, transspatial doesn't have good structure. But give this new one at least one internal slot to mount the flux lance?

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Re: spatial flux sketch

#3 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:25 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:11 pm new composite spatial flux core hull: one core slot and one external slot, kind of expensive hull, but good structure
Isn't that the same as transspatial hull?
Edit: well, transspatial doesn't have good structure. But give this new one at least one internal slot to mount the flux lance?
transspatial is currently unusable i think because of the high research cost. i think transspatial hull niche will be the cheapest core slot.

i wanted to the spatial core hull to be easily accessible but expensive. we could add an internal slot. that would probably not be used for the lance (cause the hull would be too expensive for such a low-damage weapon) but for shields (which would be fine) or stealth (and how does that interact with flux stealth, because i envision the composite spatial flux hull to have spatial flux stealth).

there should also be easier accessible core slot part(s) i guess. a shortrange weapon (whole ship build as battle ram),
some kind of special shield, drone system (hangar), research station which has research output with native appropiation policy or space phenoma... (?)

or the hull is without flux drive, but the opposite way round: the tech unlocks a core part (a spatial flux drive part) and a hull which is able to use that part.

also note that spatial flux stealth needs to be changed, the current implementation is too micromanagy with the necessary stops.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

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Re: spatial flux sketch

#4 Post by Ophiuchus »

tech tree

Code: Select all

Spatial Flux Basics -- - Spatial Flux Bubble \
(unlocks Lance)      \_ Spatial Flux Hull ---- Spatial Flux Composites
Ophiuchus wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:47 pmalso note that spatial flux stealth needs to be changed, the current implementation is too micromanagy with the necessary stops.
Current implementation: extra stealth only if you were in a system last turn (== stationary). that means that if you want your ship not to be detected you have to hop to hop from system to system (that can only be done manually) and do that via a route where you can always pass the lane in a single hop. Upside: interacts with terrain (starlane length) in a meaningful way, AI would be good at it if it knew how to use it, Downside: very micromanagy and easy to do unwanted suicide

Old idea: always extra stealth, but only in a new "silent/passive" fleet order (no participation in combat even if you get shot at), and maybe give a speed decrease (or better, the other way round: speed increase for all other fleet orders). The main idea would be that this kind of extra stealth does not give advantage in combat (probably one turn delay because of how effects work). Upside: extra stealth under circumstances, (choice: between stealth or speed,) Downside: AI may have hard time deciding or maybe not

One new idea: need one full peaceful stationary turn (since two turns in the system) to charge up stealth, but then keep the effect until you stop. that takes away the micro, may lead to interesting situations when exploring and gives advantage in combat only in the first turn. Upside: low micro, some interaction with terrain (stop and loose the benefit); or we drop the recharge turn and only depend on stationary and not in combat - it would make it easier for AI and players to use i guess and the restriction is still meaningful.
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Re: spatial flux sketch

#5 Post by wobbly »

Not sure if it the same as your last idea but how about loses stealth powering up and cooling down the engine?

Visible on 1st turn of movement, stealthed during subsequent movement, visible on 1st turn it stops?

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Re: spatial flux sketch

#6 Post by Ophiuchus »

wobbly wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 10:35 am Not sure if it the same as your last idea but how about loses stealth powering up and cooling down the engine?

Visible on 1st turn of movement, stealthed during subsequent movement, visible on 1st turn it stops?
Its a bit different.
Visible on 1st turn of movement would be kind of opposite of what the flux stealth does right now - if the next system is too close, you might not get a stealth bonus.
You could send your ship through another system first to circumvent that though.

This penalizes mostly out-of-supply situations (mostly exploration?), where you do cant afford loosing fuel.

Also do you suggest to be stealthed when being stationary or not (besides the turn you stop)?
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Re: spatial flux sketch

#7 Post by wobbly »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 10:40 pm Also do you suggest to be stealthed when being stationary or not (besides the turn you stop)?
Stealthed while stationary. I think the 1 thing they are good at currently is a parked scout. They probably should keep that.

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Re: spatial flux sketch

#8 Post by LienRag »

The way it works is micro-managy, yes.
But it's also very specific to this hull, I'm not sure that making it less micro-managy (in enemy territory, one doesn't care about stealth when no one's around to watch) would be an improvement to the game, as Flux Hull have a very different gameplay than other hulls for now.
The problem I see is that they're very difficult to understand¹, as your comment about self-suicide indicates.
Also they have very little diversity and not enough parts to really use their specificity.
And their stealth isn't good enough at the time that they come into play imho; enemy detection is usually at +50 at this stage in the game, there's no way Flux Hull can really be useful.

¹ I just found by looking in the FOCS code that they get the +10 bonus by stealth tech that Flux Bubble has ? IIRC it's not in their description, only in the Flux Bubble's.

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Re: spatial flux sketch

#9 Post by wobbly »

LienRag wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 4:09 pm And their stealth isn't good enough at the time that they come into play imho; enemy detection is usually at +50 at this stage in the game, there's no way Flux Hull can really be useful.
This one is arbitrary as you can have them fairly early. Certainly they are much cheaper to research then active radar. I'd suggest they currently have a very small window where they can shine, you need to rush them and hide a few in your neighbours territory before they get good scout coverage. People often don't guard their outpost or colony ships if they are in home turf. A couple of flux corvettes could potentially really ruin someone's day. A flux corvette teamed with flux troops can wreck an early colony.

Later on a symbiot is always better. I still occasionally use fluxs though. If you need troopships and don't have an incubator near by, then they are the next best thing.

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Re: spatial flux sketch

#10 Post by Ophiuchus »

I built this in PR-3600 and playtested the 2-turns-of-unstealth-on-arrival a bit.

Exploring safely is still very micromanagy, maybe even more so than before because you have to sit still if you arrived in a safe place until you can jump. Jumping is a bit safer because you have a clear indication of stealth - the meter value tells you if you can jump or not.

Maybe there should be a sitrep when the stealth is restored and it would be good if the arrival message could be customized for flux hulls.

Once you have explored, passing over monsters is a breeze, you can simply set course and dont care.
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Re: spatial flux sketch

#11 Post by Ophiuchus »

"Explore" command will often send your flux scout to death, but that is expected.
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Re: spatial flux sketch

#12 Post by wobbly »

The script lines to make building colonies faster is missing the spatial flux bubble, presumably due to the fact it used to be a robotic hull.

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Re: spatial flux sketch

#13 Post by wobbly »

So I was looking at fixing the pedia entry (the hulls are listed correctly as spatial flux lines, the techs are listed as robotics)

In AIDependies and ResearchAI: SPACE_FLUX_HULL_TECHS
In techs\ship_hulls\: tags = [ "PEDIA_ROBOTIC_HULL_TECHS" ]
In stringtables\: FLUX_HULL_TECHS
In ship_hulls\spatial_flux: tags = [ "PEDIA_HULL_LINE_SPATIAL_FLUX" ]

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